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AI Gunning for you

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Stuck in Pi, Apr 7, 2008.

  1. Stuck in Pi

    Stuck in Pi 3.14159265358979323846...

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    Did you ever feel like the AI was going for you? Well I know Mehmed was today.

    So I'm playing, got a nice core of cities, got longbowmen at the border. I'm out-teching everyone but Mansa Musa, and everything's going great.

    Settings: Pangea, standard players, I'm Hannibal.

    He walks his army across four players with probably the same diplo ratio as me. yet he still takes his stack (be it very pitiful) and throws it at my city. I pwn it, yet he still won't consider peace. :mad::mad:

    Someone help me realize why the AI does this.
     
  2. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    To make your game more interesting (so they say). Never noted that the relations between AIs are always way better than with you with the same modifier ? Like, one will be pleased with another and annoyed with you with the same modifier ? That's the famous "Yay, let's totally screw diplomacy for the player, that's fun !" Civ IV effect.

    Arg, I'm ranting about diplo again.
     
  3. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Chieftain

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    Nope, never. And in fact, I've also seen some AI pissed of with others (annoyed) at +4 modifier, when they were pleased with me at +2, didn't you? :)
     
  4. Endure

    Endure Chieftain

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    Alot of games it feels that way. The AI's will go out of their way to make war on me and it's really annoying sometimes.

    On a few rare games, they leave me alone almost all game. It's a nice change of pace but gets kinda boring.
     
  5. reverend oats

    reverend oats Chieftain

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    Varius AI's have hidden modifers for each other. In general, warmongers like warmongers and peacemongrers like peacemongers. But there are also hidden negatives. For example, Montezuma has about a -4 towards Asoka and Augustus, IIRC.
     
  6. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    Yeah, right. And they all have a -12 "let's pwn the player" not so hidden. Exemple in my current game, random personalities : I start isolated with Saladin, who won't open borders no matter what. Yay, Toku FTW. So, I can't be in his religion, I found mine, and our relations are totally screwed from the very start. Later, I find the others dudes, all pissed about me because I'm an heaten. I don't care too much, since they're from two religions, I think they gonna kick each other ass. Yeah, right. Charlemagne, who is absolutely HUGE in power (5 times anyone else, at least) has an enemy on his continent. He was just cautious with me, and was annoyed with AIs in his own continent. Does he dow on that enemy ? You bet. He beelines Astronomy and dows on me while I'm half a world away. Sounds familiar ? It is. That's not the end of it, far from it. Guess who runs the damned AP ? The same. Every pleased trade partner I had dows on me the next turn. Meanwhile, Charlemagne meets Saladin, and is pleased from the start, at -3. Saladin is cautious with him at -6. -6, dammit ! Cautious. Open borders and all, while he wouldn't open borders with me at +2 for a millenium ! So now I've got my big stack I've been preparing for centuries camping on Saladin's border and I know that if dow on him like I have been planning for a thousand years, the whole world will come for me again. I'm totally screwed from all sides no matter what I do. And since all my cities except my capital are coastal and my sentinels are fscking blind ("He, is that a huge fleet coming for us ? Naaa, must be a seagull ! Gimme another drink."), I'm doomed to pump troops and ships in every freaking town.

    And that's just another game, diplo as usual. I won't even talk about the hundreds of demands they made, that would become obscene.
     
  7. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Chieftain

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    :deadhorse:

    (10 chars)
     
  8. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    Yeah, but at least that feels good. :D
     
  9. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Chieftain

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    Having never felt this feeling of "AI gunning for you", I cant' really understand. But why not.
     
  10. Leodavinci

    Leodavinci Great Merchant

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    I had only once that situation, but that was Toku and .. I started it, attacked first, got some cities made peace. And then every 10-50 turns that guy declared on me... I could not really do anything about it, just fight back and watch the other continent flourish...
    But then again, I started.
     
  11. Cristoval

    Cristoval Chieftain

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    Yeah I've felt that way in a few matches that were on pangea maps. But when I played with continents the AI wasn't really that aggressive to me. My neighbors Alexander, and Cyrus were hated though. I like it when AIs declare war on each other it's a nice atmosphere to play in, and sometimes It helps me catch up in the game score.
     
  12. Leodavinci

    Leodavinci Great Merchant

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    This is why I love Shaka, he seems to always attack AI with the highest score.
     
  13. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    I've never noticed the AI picked on me more than others at all. Of course I am playing my mod, but this is what jsut happened to me last game:

    Terra, noble or prince diff can't remember. 8 total civs.

    The Byzantines slowly built up an empire of vassals. They went through many many wars with everyone including me. I held out the longest, and the AI went to war against other AI many times until at last it settled out that only I, the germans and Saladin were not vassals of the Byzantines. 4 other AI had succumbed to terrible warfare waged upon them by the AI in preference to fighting me.

    I lost eventually, but I wasn't the last to go.
     
  14. Socratatus

    Socratatus Chieftain

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    Well, in my new game I never once felt picked on. I allied early on with the powerful Phoenicians (from the Arma mod). I was very nice to him, trading and all that until he was giving me stuff for free! No one ever bothered me. I played well into the 25th century until I got bored and tried to start war. I thought I was pretty strong enough to take the leader on. I started using spies to attack his cities and didn`t care if he noticed much. I had a -18 modifier because of my spying and he was furious, but he wouldn`t break our Defensive pact. eventually, I broke it and then closed borders and attacked him,.

    Well, that was a mistake, because he wiped the floor with me. He had so many units that he could`ve picked on me whenever he wanted. I was amazed that he was so powerful all along, but wouldn`t attack me, even with all my baiting... maybe my early days good will were still making him refuse to attack me without a cause. Like I said, my campaign was so peaceful and unwarlike I got bored!

    I hope for a bit more of a fight next campaign.

    Nah. The AI doesn`t pick on the Player, it just feels like that as anything does when you find yourself the subject of aggression.
     
  15. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    The fact that something doesn't happen to someone in a particular game doesn't mean that it's not usually happening for a lot of people in a lot of games. And the other way around. Play enough games and you see that more often that not you'll be the favourite not to say the one and only target. I've had my share of games gone well too, without anything shifty besides the usual billion of demands and player-only modifiers, but I can tell when an AI is coming for me instead of the next guy against all odds.

    Come on. Charlemagne didn't declare on anyone the whole game despite having heatens he was annoyed about on his continent and an incredible military power. The minute I meet him, he beelines Astronomy, skipping Nationalism, Education, every usual tech path usually taken at this point of the game, and declares war on me once he has built three ships. After that, he never declares war on anyone again, despite saying "we have to much on our hands" when I check if he's ok to fight someone else. I can swear there was a huge stack waiting in a fleet for me to say no to something he asked.

    Current game : not a war to be seen anywhere the whole game. I send caravels, meet HC, he asks tribute, I pay, he's happy, he declares war on me anyway as soon as he can despite the 8 others targets from a different religion. He just loved them all, he wouldn't "betray his best friends" he just met. Ragnar makes the same thing some turns later, after asking me Astronomy (that was something : the dude politely asks me a tech to attack me). I had something like +8 with him and he too had a lot of less friendly targets to choose. Strangely, none of them did : they came for me. They didn't stand half a chance, but that didn't stop them. I had Gilgamesh on my landmass who was so backwards it wasn't even funny and buddhist like me, no one attacked him. Everybody was loving him, and he was loving everybody. He was so loving them that he wouldn't consider join me in the war to not "betray his best friends" at +2 when he had +15 with me. That sure does look balanced and the player doesn't face an heavy handicap, not at all. I'm just imagining things. Right.

    So yeah, when you have a Shaka or another warmonger who'll declare war on anyone around, or a zealot who want to kill all heatens, you might not be the first to take the heat. But when it's calm, you'll see someone coming for you no matter what. The AI doesn't pick on the player only. But they sure pick on you over anyone else any day.
     
  16. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Chieftain

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    As you said, you can't really prove anything with just your experience alone. And no one did it yet.

    If I'm correct, there was a piece of code like that in the warlords agressive AI which mad the AI beeline for the human player more than for the other AIs. But as long as no one shows me the code saying "AI will prefer to go to war with you instead of the human" in the standard BTS AI, from my own experience with the game, I won't believe in this possibility.
     
  17. Breunor

    Breunor Chieftain

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    I also would like to see the code before concluding that there is an anti-human bias. Clearly, the AI dogpiles, there is a dogpile modifier built into the leader file, but it doesn't appear to be built on whether the opponent is human. Dogpiling is logical, after all.

    I've gotten dogpiled, obviously it is annoying and usually leads to a loss. However, I suspect that some people have it happen and others don't because of play style. For instance, if you found religions and adopt them, you can get a lot of power and money but there will often be diplomatic penalties.

    Some of the phenomena discussed in posts above should be explained. Remember that the AI decides to declare war before it does -- therefore, sometimes the decision to declare war is 'logical' (and it always works within the computer's parameters) but it may not at the time of the DOW.

    Also, each AI player has a minimum number of turns that it fights. Therefore, even if you destroy its entire army, it will fight the minimum. This rule prevents the human from getting out of fights too early. However, my understanding again is that the rules apply equally to fights against other AI's and humans.

    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  18. Navarre

    Navarre Legio XIII

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    True, just like I can't prove from my own experience that the sky is blue on a sunny day. But until proven otherwise, I'll continue to believe it. ;)

    Just to be perfectly clear, and I'll let go the topic after that : I'm not saying that the AI will come for the player every time or in any situation, or will dogpile on the player for no reason : there was a reason for me being dogpiled, the AP. I'm just saying that, with all other things equal, the AI will come for the player more than for anyone else. And if the code proves me wrong, I guess I'm just really unlucky, or there's something about the diplo I still don't get after dozens of games. But honestly, I'd be really surprised : just considering the weight of refusals to demands in the process of the AI deciding if it goes to war should be enough.

    The diplo is unfair to the player, I think nobody contests that : call it a feature to make the game more about interesting decisions or whatever, in the end the diplo is rotten by the incessant demands. These demands will play a role in your relations with AIs, good and bad, and the AI will be more eager to go at war with someone who refused to give a tribute than with someone it never asked a tribute to begin with. If answering a demand was a simple matter of +1/-1 with one opponent, that would be balanced, but it's usually a matter of +1/-1 with an opponent and 0/-4 with others ("you trade with our worst enemy" and friends). When it's a situation of two sides not liking each other, that's possible to manage. But when you have countries who don't like others who don't like others who don't like the first and you have to trade with all, you'll end up stacking negative modifiers no matter what, negative modifiers the AI don't have to worry about. In the end, you just can't avoid negative modifiers, and someone will likely be pissed enough to come after you. And the simple fact of having half the world popping on your screen every round to make a stupid demand they should know you'll never accept is boring enough on his own. Too bad you can't kill the messenger, that would at least be something.

    IMHO, that's the big downside of the game. I love this game, but I'd love it more if it feeled like my empire is part of a world with others instead of the center of a world where everyone wants something from me every freaky minute. As it is, I just feel like "the player", not like the leader of a civilization.
     
  19. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Chieftain

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    There's still one main difference here: we're dealing with a computer program. And unless you believe in a big conspiration from firaxis, ibm, miscrosoft or some aliens (I'm not joking here, some people do), the program will only do what it's asked to do. If no code is written which gives a anti-human bias, then there isn't one.
    Considering that lot's of people have looked into this code, and no one has yet come saying "Look at this! There's an anti-human bias!", I believe there is none. Still could be wrong of course.

    I do :)
    Not because of contradiction spirit or anything else. Since the human has a diplo syste.m that is so different from the AI's one, it's impossible to build a system which will take that into account perfectly, unless you just build a free-for-all. I say we can't compare the AI-to-AI diplo with the human-to-AI diplo.
    Perhaps the human-to-AI diplo could be made more interesting/fun/realistic/..., I won't deny that. But calling it "unfair" when we have human players who will not hesitate to DoW on a friendly AI just because he/she is in the way seems wrong to me.

    I have a different look at the diplo system since the time I started to play mostly OCC. I usually play monarch/emperor, and don't have too much problems not to be DoWed on. Actually, I DoW on other civ more often that I am DoWed (and still play peacefully: I DoW only for diplomatic reasons).
    I realized the power of knowing who is who's worst ennemy, not to get any "you traded with..." modifier. I also realized that saying "yes" to a "stop trading with..." demand is sometimes not too much of a problem, since it will make the victim hate the civ who asked even more ("you negociated a trade embargo"). And I also realized that AI-to-AI diplo has both negative and positive hidden modifiers, but has at the same time less chance to get positive modifiers than the AI. For instance, since the AI almost never agree on fair deals, they rarely have "our trades have been fair and fortright" between themselves. I have also yet to see an AI having "you gave us help" or "you gave us tribute" to any other one. All in all, I think it's easier to have good relations to most AI than it's possible for the AI. As long as you have techs to spare of course :)

    -- edit: oh, I must add I usually don't play with more than 10 civ including mine, so I'm also less inclined to have visits from AIs every turn. But I find easier these days to get (almost) only positive modifiers from the major parts of the AIs.
     
  20. Oatse

    Oatse Chieftain

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    In my current game I got the Arabians to wipe out the Mayans for me, the only reason I noticed they were gone is because I couldn't demand tribute from them anymore, someone killed Asoka too and most of the AI's are at war with eachother.
     

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