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AI: Handicap changes to reduce units in favor of other bonuses

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Stalker0, May 12, 2019.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Wasnt always claimed, the AI didnt treat the human differently?
    This isnt true. The average player is on the level of prince/king. Someone made an excel sheet to track the outcome of games like a year ago. And the average player hovered at around those both difficulties. Lets assume most "bad" player are not visiting the forum and reporting their games, I think we can still say most average players are playing on prince. Ive introduced a friend which never played civilization, and he was pretty fast able to win on prince. Sure, he got a lot of advice from me, but is now an acceptable emperor player.
     
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  2. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    What evidence is there that the value only changes relative to the human? AI have relationships with each other, as well.
     
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  3. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    Atleast the Vox Populi Wiki says to the Warprobability value: "Increases AI enmity towards humans who get too close to victory", and the value rises with each difficulty level.

    Btw. Iam a fan of a "chilled" AI version, but not like the version which were already discussed.
    Its in my eyes a little bit cheating, if I want to go warmongering and enable cause of this "raging barbs" to get more yields by authority.
    I would stick several options into "packages".
    A "wild game" option, which has a similar effect like raging barbarians, but also makes the AI more agressiv, gives AI and barbarians better abilities in fight and some other minor stuff to increas the difficulty.
    A "chilled game" option, which has similar effect to chilled barbarians, makes AI less agressive, more generous, less agressiv in settling.
    A "peaceful game" option, which disables barbarians, advanced spy actions, AI war declaration vs the human and a helpful AI. If a war declaration agaisnt an AI is done by the human, the mode switches to chilled game.
     
  4. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    I don't recall that ever being claimed, but in certain areas they do use different treatment (this is also the case in vanilla). AIDeclareWarProb has been listed on that page for a long time; however, it only really applies if you're close to a victory condition (i.e. endgame).

    Note that on Settler, AIDeclareWarProb actually decreases the enmity towards humans relative to other AIs (again, only in the endgame).

    1: Authority AIs produce a lot of military units and can profit from raging barbarians as well.

    2: Disabling Domination victory will reduce AI's WAR and HOSTILE approaches by half (prior to opinion modifying it); combine that with Chill Barbarians and you've pretty much got that.

    3: If you want the AI not to compete with you at all, why bother having AI players there in the first place? There's a setting already to disable barbarians, and Settler offers substantial bonuses (more happiness, discounts on unit/road maintenance and Social Policies, and the AI gets production penalties and no periodic yield bonuses), so I think it's unnecessary, honestly.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  5. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    I understand people have different ideas of what is fun, but "want an AI clever enough to develop itself and fight back" and "don't want to deal with an intelligent AI which might counter your plan by declaring war to you" are contradictory. If they can't declare war and you can focus all your energies into science, culture and growth without having to build a military, on top of the fact that you're a human, you can't really expect them to put up much of a challenge.
     
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I don't think I'd be interested, but think this is a really good idea.
     
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I think you're missing the point. The variation would be for people who want a more Sims-like experience, and who don't want what you and I call a challenge.
     
  8. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Chieftain

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    When does this endgame starts? There was already some strange behavior in a previous game I've played. I was always on good conditions with all civs, except Assyria, which attacked me several times, till I got his capital and vasallized him. After that point, I was able to make even a DP with an other neighbor I was always on very good conditions.
    Then my era changed, and immidiatly 5 AI's denounced me in one turn. One turn later, even my former DP neighbor denounced me. Yeah I know, they play to win, but I was always peaceful and helpful, but this parade of denouncements was really artificial and odd.
     
  9. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    Pretty sure he meant the overall Civ 5 community, not the average VP player. If we want more people to play VP we need to look at the pool of people who purchased Civ 5 but don't use VP yet, as well, though I personally don't much care for that as the VP community is already fairly large and in the end there might be compromises involved that I don't like (not that I really have the time to play right now, sadly).

    With regards to the issue at hand, however, we're talking about players who don't like to micromanage an army and thus want to avoid wars. Since the game already offers ways to do that ("just" have a decent sized army, which during peace requires almost no micromanagement, and invest a lot into diplomacy) it seems that such a player represents more of a special case of wanting the aforementioned "sims experience", which means they should probably have to choose special settings as well, instead of demanding that the default game settings conform to their preferences. The suggestions above (choose non-warmonger civs as opponents, lower difficulty somewhat, disable Domination Victory), however, are probably not even tried by many of the people complaining about this, which is kinda their own fault.
    The only new option that would really make sense to me would be disabling DoW completely, since otherwise there is always a chance at war and the involved "dreaded micromanagement", but that would likely mess up the way the AI reacts to situations and fixing that doesn't seem worth it, IMO, considering the small cohort of players we're talking about and the stage of VP development.

    Bottom line I'd like to see those who complain about too much war first try the options already available before asking for a new option.
     
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  10. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    I personally strongly oppose any addition of more 'AI combat cheats', although I understand why the idea came up. But ultimately I think it is not needed: 1v1 and AI wins just because of the bonus is incredibly annoying, and sometimes you just can't do anything about it, while you can - almost - always beat numerical advantage with superior tactics. If it's too tedious... well that can not be avoided I'm afraid. At least it makes every decision meaningful, which is exciting.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  11. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Unfortunately true.

    Because that truth there is driving the design "philosophy" and we get the products we get from FXS. :rolleyes:
     
  12. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    So like a sandbox mode? I mean, I guess it's not a terrible idea but I think it's more of a minority view? Really Advanced Setup offers the option to disable DoWs entirely from all players, although that also means once land is settled, it's settled forever. :)

    Domination Victory: If you control at least 75% of original capitals.

    Diplomatic Victory: If you have greater than or equal to the number of delegates needed to win Global Hegemony.

    Science Victory: One of the following conditions must be true:
    - You have constructed more than 2 spaceship parts
    - You have researched at least 81% of total techs and the # of major civilizations you have researched more techs than > 2x the number of major civilizations you have researched less techs than

    Cultural Victory: AI checks based on how many civilizations you're influential on vs. how many civs can be influenced.

    If you're influential on at least 50% of major civs and there are at least 4 civs you can influence, or;

    If you're influential on at least 25% of major civs and there are 3 other civs you can influence, or;

    If there are less than 3 other civs you can influence;

    Then the AI will check to see the civilization you have the lowest influence on. If the current trend indicates you will be influential on them in 75 turns or less, you are close to cultural victory.

    You are also close to cultural victory if you are building the Utopia Project according to the code (not sure if this flag was also added to the Citizen Earth Protocol).
     
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If your saying that the people that are committed enough to the game to hang out in the forums and provide excel data are prince players...I could probably agree with that. But there are many people who play VP that have never posted in these forums (you only have to look at the download rates for the mod to see that, its much higher than the posters).

    Now is it possible that most people who play balanced mods are also higher than Settler players? That is certainly possible, but I don't think anyone knows.

    What we do know, from long standing data from Firaxis, is that most Civ players play on Settler. So to me it would be silly to ignore that portion of the player base...especially when we are just adding in handicaps.
     
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  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So all of the conditions look reasonable to me...with the exception of Diplomatic. If you aren't going into "end game" before they already have the delegates needed I think your reacting too late.
     
  15. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I can't tell you what it should be, since I'm not even going to use it. And it probably is a minority view. But my guess is that a distinct minority of players would occasionally enjoy the option of a toggle on the Really Advanced Setup akin to Chill Barbarians. This would not be as drastic as No War, but more like what the OP on this topic wrote: AI avoid war unless you're really causing problems. This would theoretically be accomplished by toning down the AI hostility. But I have no clue, and not much interest in the topic!
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Going back to my OP, the suggestion was not that there is "too much war", in context of AIs declaring on humans, or the AI's aggressiveness towards humans.

    It was geared on the notion that the AI uses "sloggy" tactics to counter its weaknesses. It can't fight as well as a human, so it sends wave after wave of its own men. Over time, the AI has gotten much better, but still relies on this fundamental tactic.

    So my question was whether we want to shift that slightly. A little less sloggy, but give the AI some other bonus to compensate...even if that bonus felt more "cheaty".
     
  17. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Does this apply to anyone who fulfills the conditions, or only if the human player does?
     
  18. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Chieftain

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    One potential consequence of nudging the AI's military advantage away from quantity and toward quality is that it would be a bit harder to use WW as a means to eventually overtake the AI. The WW/attrition strategy is pretty effective if you're able to maintain the war long enough and not suffer too much WW yourself. The definition of "long enough" would get longer if the AI's units aren't being killed at the rate they are now.

    I happen to somewhat enjoy the attrition/WW strategy for conquering over the blitz/rapid city conquer style that was more the norm before the AI got better at war tactics. I derive some enjoyment from both fighting effectively (killing lots of AI units while not losing my own) and also managing inevitable WW, economic, and diplomatic consequences of war in order to ensure I can be at war long enough for attrition to work.

    Having said all that, I don't mind if that strategy gets harder. I just wanted to point it out as a possible shift if the AI units are made less numerous but tougher.
     
  19. Rekk

    Rekk Chieftain

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    Does war weariness also trigger of of damage taken/dealt, or just kills?
     
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  20. civplayer33

    civplayer33 Chieftain

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    Pretty sure it was damage.
    Ironically, I think that this may reduce micromanagement for the AI but not for the human. Assuming we can implement such a change while preserving overall AI strength, you will now have a lower number of units to kill in wars, but a higher amount of micromanagement necessary per kill. Also, as someone else has pointed out as well, I don't like making the unit differential more unfair that it already is because of AI XP bonuses; I prefer the AI having the production and supply bonuses instead of more per unit bonuses, but that's obviously just my (and some other's) personal opinion. The point, however, is that I'm not sure that micromanagement for the human player would really be reduced with such a change, which was at least part of the original goal.
     
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