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AI happiness = difficulty balancer?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kendo3, Nov 1, 2010.

  1. kendo3

    kendo3 Chieftain

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    so is the basically unlimited AI happiness the way this game tries to increase the difficulty? playing on Deity, and was in an early age war with Rome. so the only happiness buildings were coliseum and circus. he had two cities left and only one had horses; he was not allied with any city states to give him luxuries and only had two within his domain.

    even assuming trading between other civilizations, he shouldn't have had more than +10 or +15 happiness given the size of his cities and probably should have had a hard time being positive at all. then the little adviser window pops up, showing the world happiness.

    there I was, at the bottom with +3 and feeling pretty good about managing a positive number.

    next one above me on the list was Rome, at +45 ?!? all the rest of the civs were at +50 or better. no wonder they can crank out cities all over the place.

    I knew, and expected, the AI to get production bonuses, extra units at the start, etc. but this is a ridiculous way to increase the difficulty for higher levels. basically turn off a major portion of the game for the AI??

    was this a one off occurrence, or is this the main thing you are up against when competing at top settings?
     
  2. MadRat

    MadRat Cheese Raider

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    Yup this is a known AI cheat and you see it at all levels. Just another wonderful example of the quality game design in Civ 5.

    Rat
     
  3. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    Yes. The AI has huge happiness bonuses. I think the designers explained that the AI made more decisions based on increasing happiness than a human player would, and they certainly have the ability to get policies/buildings more rapidly, but it doesn't explain the huge numbers.
     
  4. PawelS

    PawelS Ancient Druid

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    The AI "cheats" in Civ4 too. You won't see a non-cheating AI being challenging to an experienced player in any Civ game.
     
  5. MadRat

    MadRat Cheese Raider

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    Yup. I merely meant that the happiness cheat, compared to Civ 4 cheats is soo blatant and unbalancing it isn't funny. I had to do a headsmack when i saw Alex with 60 happiness in 2500 BC.

    Rat
     
  6. MRM

    MRM Prince

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    That's true - but OTOH I suspect, that those happiness bonuses help more strong AIs taking over weak AIs ( so called runaway civs ) then against the human player. And to often I saw ( on smaller maps ) just one remaining AI that did nothing to win and make it this way easier for me to win. Somehow this system is not working ...
     
  7. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    Location:
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    Deity:
    <AIUnhappinessPercent>60</AIUnhappinessPercent>

    I don't think that alone would account for +45:), but when you add up all the things like 9 base happy (or maybe AI gets more?), natural wonders, a couple of resources (which probably give +1 or more :) per resource), happiness buildings (which AI would build cheap and maintain cheap) you probably start to get close.
     
  8. aimlessgun

    aimlessgun King

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    The cheating itself is perfectly fine. It's deity for god's sake.

    But that world happiness window needs to go. It breaks immersion and upsets people, and leads to threads like this.
     
  9. kendo3

    kendo3 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
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    sorry, but don't agree if the outrageous difference in happiness is the main adjustment in deity level. I would expect progressions like:

    easiest levels - player production cost at 75 - 80 % of AI level

    mid-level - AI production 1:1 with player

    higher level - AI production cost at 75 - 80 % of player level

    deity level - AI production cost at 50 - 60 % of player level

    maybe give the AI a reasonable increasing amount of global happiness but that's already partially factored in by the decreasing amount of starting happiness the player receives as you increase the difficulty level.

    modify the gold cost of maintaining the extra buildings and units the AI can create along the same lines and the AI should have the means to handle unhappiness similar to the way a player has to. by balancing units vs. buildings vs. expansion, etc.
     
  10. CTH

    CTH Prince

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    I think that the happiness bonus is to big on diety, it is not fun when it is impossible to be even half as large as the AI, the larger the map the more uneven. Production bonuses and free workers and stuff that makes the AI to have a larger army is all fine and the AI should have some happiness bonuses also but now it is just silly.
     
  11. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Don't play diety then.

    Its meant to be a level where the AI cheats so outrageously that even the very best human players find it hard to win.
     
  12. wurstburst

    wurstburst Prince

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    I have no problem with AI's getting more happy on higher levels. It's supposed to be an opponent with everything in it's favor. Heck, on turn 0 they have you at a massive disadvantage before you even settle a city.

    It's all good.
     
  13. elthrasher

    elthrasher Revcaster

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    This is too easy. Giving the AI just a 2:1 production advantage is nothing. It doesn't know how to use its units properly. It doesn't know what techs to prioritize. It doesn't know which wonders are useless. It doesn't even know to bribe city states after the UN has been built.

    I don't think the AI needs to have 45 happiness, but it needs some big advantages to be challenging because it's so darn stupid.
     
  14. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    If the AI used workers to develop plots properly you could probably knock off some of the bonuses immediately.
     
  15. Just Checking

    Just Checking Chieftain

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    Don't know if it was just a one-off, but i got the same thing on Prince. Around mid-game (Medieval era or so) the happiness list popped up and the AI had some ridiculous numbers with the highest 50 or so.
     
  16. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    I read an interview somewhere where a game designer swore that the AI does not receive happiness bonuses on Prince.

    Having 50 happiness in the Medieval era is quite possible, so I wouldn't immediately attribute it to cheating.
     
  17. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Gadhi has 80 happiness. :cry:

    And this is in Medieval and he's running the largest empire in the game behind Rome. I mean, how are these AIs doing it. Luxuries add up to 75 if you somehow get them all but at some point, I don't see how the AI isn't bankrupting itself by building happiness buildings.
     
  18. testdummy653

    testdummy653 Prince

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    I disagree... ICS disagrees... You can have a large empire even larger than the AI's, and still be sorta of happy (meaning your not in the anti-production and anti-war unhappiness).
     
  19. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Game designers is lying out of their asses.



    Siam Rexxed just like that, and went blam boom super huge cities instant.

    What's more, this picture is outdated, I ragequit'd cuz I didn't feel like fighting off SIam and Germany who wants my Nara. They both assaulted me with riflemen when I only had samurais I managed to finish riflemen tech one turn before the assault so I upgraded em all up instantly. So their attack got spoiled, and been in eternal war cuz I can't afford to leave my lands.

    They tried to flank me numberous times, Striking at Tokyo at further south and failing, and declared on Edinburgh which also failed cuz I met them in the fields of Edinburgh to keep my territory mostly a secret from those two pigheads.

    He built 10+ cities in space of what, 10-20 turns, and they all grow super fast look, 19 16 10 14 17 pop.

    So if you count 2 unhappiness per city and one unhappy per pop point.

    Oh should I mention that I even beat the pigheads to forbidden palace?

    Only reason Warsaw is even still alive cuz he was my ally I bludgeoned siam from killing him repeatedly.

    I currently got Mechinfantry in my home but only two uranium node and one of them is under a manfactory xD

    This game is the one where I'm trying out tradition policy out for the first time, oligarchy's pretty useful, it discourages the pigheads from attacking my units in my territory, combined with high lvl units = lol gtfo pigheads.

    Sorry but, this game is on Prince level, AIs is blatantly cheating. Civ 5 will continue to fail until they improve ai's ability to fight and develop their ciites properly with blatant cheats tossed out the window.

    I have like the world's smallest military and the Inflatation is trying the bestest to kill my units. Seriously. I can't even afford to build more city defenses.

    I have like what 10 units up front and then about other five units defending the south with one lonely destroyer to sink the amphious assaulters.

    Yet, AI rexx with no unhappiness penalities and run around iwth millions of units.

    I'm not allowed to do the same but the Ai and palyers play on the level playing field in Civ 4 I don't like fake handicaps it turns me off. Aftewr this game, i just raged and went and played civ 4 instead.

    Oh wait, i forgot, this isn't even the world's powerful at all, I have a friend, somewhere in the fog of war, named Monty.

    And his military strength is more than double than Siam and Germany combined.
     
  20. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    Why would the designers lie when players can easily verify that by checking the game files? And what's there to gain by lying about Prince level when they already admit that the AI has huge bonuses on higher difficulty levels?

    As for Siam rexxing, first of all, how do you know his empire wasn't unhappy? And secondly, have you not read that it is possible to maintain a happy population with a large empire? Each city can build colloseums, theatres, circuses, etc. Plus the more land area you have, the more luxuries you have a chance of getting.

    Sorry, but your post just seems like an incoherent rant rather than any concrete proof that the AI is cheating.
     

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