AI has a memory like an elephant

sealman

Hater of Babylonians
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I hear that elephant's never forget, how this was proven is beyond me because I have never held an elephant recall anything. This leads me to the issue at hand:

Early in my current game, the Babylonians declare war on me because I would not pay them tribute, surprise surprise. Babylon is very far away and conflict was not feasable so war status remained. Babylon and Egypt were at war and Cleo came to me and offered gpt to form a miltary agreement against Babylon, ha to know that I was not going to do anything. So I took the deal. About 16-17 turns into the agreement, I made peace with Babylon. Egypt has never forgiven me, it is something like 2000 years later and she is still furious.

To make matters worse, I am in war with England and all coutries are siding with one or the other. Egypt, still upset with me, signs an embargo with England against me. I go to Babylon to sign either a MPP or a military agreement and they tell me no because I did not live up to my agreements with Egypt some 2000 years ago. What ticked me off was that they were with Egypt at the time so me sticking to Egypt, so to speak, should have had no effect. Oh well. What can you do. The Babylonians are never receptive anyway.
 
Well, you did break an agreement, even though it was a long time ago. That's why I always take care not to break any, and I won't make an agreement I'm not prepared to keep.

What peeved me a bit in my last game was that the Egyptians wrongly accused me of breaking one. I didn't have an ROP with them, but did have a couple of troops in their territory. When Cleo asked me to leave, I declared war instead. The war's long over, but now I want an ROP and she won't give me one, claiming that I broke one in the past, which is a lie.
 
I had a more bizarre occurance. During the ancient period, Japan declared war on me because I was unwilling to pay tribute. They end up getting wiped out by myself and the English. Now, the funny thing is, for the rest of the game, I had to pay out the ass to get ROPs. Civs would claim that I had broken a similar treaty with the Japanese! I never had a ROP with the Japanese! So, I am screwed as far as achieving good diplomatic relations with anybody, because the Japanese declared war on me?
 
As a human player in the game, you would not forget an opponents dishonesty even though thousands of game years have passed, so why would the computer player forget? In fact, when multiplayer comes out (someday), you might not forget an opponents transgressions from one game to another, never mind from the beginning of the game to the ending.

Oh, it would take time to figure out an elephant's recall ability, but it would be possible. If Chip Quin, while in Seymore Benzer's lab, was able to create an assay to test the learning and memory of fruit flies, someone could generate an assay to test the memory of an elephant. ;)
 
AN ELEPHANT NEVER FORGETS – “First attested in the United States in ‘Blue Ridge’ (1937) by W. Martyn. The proverb is probably of Greek origin. The Greeks sometimes say, ‘The camel never forgets an injury,’ according to Burton Stevenson. ‘To have a memory like an elephant’ is used as a figure of speech.” From “Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings” (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996).

A second reference adds to this and has an earlier citation date: “Said of someone with a prodigious memory, usually for slights and wrongs. It was not the memory of the elephant but that of the camel that was renowned amongst the Greeks long ago. A Greek proverb ran ‘Camels never forget an injury.’ Proverbial reference to the elephant’s memory is relatively recent. In ‘Reginald: Reginald on Besetting Sins’ (1910), the camel is usurped by the elephant: ‘Women and elephants never forget an injury.’ The author, Saki, was no stranger to elephants having been born in Burma and lived there, and would have appreciated the intelligence of the animal. The working elephant memorises a large number of commands given by the mahout and recognizes many other animals and people, thus remembering both kindnesses and injuries. Since its life-span is 50 or 60 years these memories are long-lived. Usage: Usually said of a person who does not forget injuries, but an ‘elephantine memory’ could just be a good one.” From the “Dictionary of Proverbs and their Origins” by Linda and Roger Flavell (First published in the UK by Kyle Cathie Ltd, Barnes and Noble Inc, 1997, New York).
 
Originally posted by sealman
SNIP... So I took the deal. About 16-17 turns into the agreement, I made peace with Babylon. Egypt has never forgiven me, it is something like 2000 years later and she is still furious. ...SNIP
If you had waited 3 or 4 more turns, you could have broken that MPP with Egypt and then made peace with Babs. All treaties have a 20 year term. Don't break them before that or else your reputation is Mudd.
 
Originally posted by sealman


Yep. Was not paying attention.

It also happened to me. All because the game interface does not show us easily how many turns it takes for the deal to expire. You have to contact another leader, then click on "Active"... too much work for an info that could have been easily provided. :mad:
 
Originally posted by Alexnm


It also happened to me. All because the game interface does not show us easily how many turns it takes for the deal to expire. You have to contact another leader, then click on "Active"... too much work for an info that could have been easily provided. :mad:
That lack of info on deals has been an on and off again topic on the forum. I know it's easy to double click the AI leader, propose a deal then check 'Active' to see what's yet to expire. But, many of us have concerns about repeatedly contacting the other civs and then saying in essence 'Forget it'.

Maybe if Firaxis would assure us that bugging the other civs in this manner will not affect our reputation it would be different. But, think about what will happen if this same procedure is used in MP. Then I most definitely would get po'd if some other player constantly contacted me and said 'Forget it'.

Firaxis will need to address this sometime before MP ships.

(And I'm NOT one of those waiting on pins and needles for MP!)
 
Originally posted by PaulNAdhe
That lack of info on deals has been an on and off again topic on the forum. I know it's easy to double click the AI leader, propose a deal then check 'Active' to see what's yet to expire. But, many of us have concerns about repeatedly contacting the other civs and then saying in essence 'Forget it'.

Maybe if Firaxis would assure us that bugging the other civs in this manner will not affect our reputation it would be different. But, think about what will happen if this same procedure is used in MP. Then I most definitely would get po'd if some other player constantly contacted me and said 'Forget it'.

Firaxis will need to address this sometime before MP ships.

(And I'm NOT one of those waiting on pins and needles for MP!)

I think I read in the Apolyton chat with some Firaxians that contacting civs and then not making any sort of deal has no effect on relations.
 
Originally posted by eyrei


I think I read in the Apolyton chat with some Firaxians that contacting civs and then not making any sort of deal has no effect on relations.
That's good to know, thanks for the info :goodjob:

But, that still leaves the annoyance factor in MP.:(
 
Originally posted by sealman
even if there is no neg influence, I try to never say forget it. I'll just give them a map or 1 gold, just for answering the phone so to speak.
I do the same thing. Saying "forget it" might not have a bad effect but continuously giving them small gifts seems to have a pretty good effect.

Regarding the folks getting blacklisted for violating ROP's that they didn't make: This sounds like a bug. Either in the program or in the text file (wrong message in that 'slot').
 
Originally posted by Shaitan

I do the same thing. Saying "forget it" might not have a bad effect but continuously giving them small gifts seems to have a pretty good effect.

Regarding the folks getting blacklisted for violating ROP's that they didn't make: This sounds like a bug. Either in the program or in the text file (wrong message in that 'slot').

I think it is in the program. Both games where this has happened (both 1.17) I have also had to pay outrageously for ROPs with civs with fractions of the landmass I have, who are also polite or gracious. This leads me to believe that I am suffering the effects of having broken a ROP.
 
Originally posted by sealman
even if there is no neg influence, I try to never say forget it. I'll just give them a map or 1 gold, just for answering the phone so to speak.
That's a good idea, I'll try it next time I want to maintain good relations for a while.

My current game? All but Persia and Rome are at war with me, that's ok though because I've been conquering their luxuries, now I don't import any and have all 8 :D
 
Originally posted by eyrei


I think it is in the program. Both games where this has happened (both 1.17) I have also had to pay outrageously for ROPs with civs with fractions of the landmass I have, who are also polite or gracious. This leads me to believe that I am suffering the effects of having broken a ROP.
Hmmm...
In the Brit Isles succession game Brittany went from paying 6 g/t for a ROP to wanting almost 400 gold to continue it. They're polite and we had no conflicts at that point. I wonder if we're getting this same thing...

I'm going to put this up on the bug thread.
 
Originally posted by eyrei
I think I read in the Apolyton chat with some Firaxians that contacting civs and then not making any sort of deal has no effect on relations.
But it can make them greedy. Joan wanted Refining from me - or else war. I reloaded 2turns earlier and didn't communicate with her and she only wanted a Territory Map. I usually save before conversations.
 
Originally posted by rmsharpe
Not only that, but what would France do? Invade you? *laughter*
Joan wants to cause war weariness. I think that she was pretty far away in that game without a real chance of invasion.:)
 
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