AI Industrial Era Exploit

[bhinso]

I'm a big fan of Civ 3 and alternate between Conquests, and Civ 4. I think a modded combination of Civ 3 with Civ 4's city maintanance (ie you pay for more cities rather than just lose their benefits because of corruption) would be excellent, but ive not seen such a mod yet.

Anyway, my main complaint is that when playing Conquests I find that as long as I keep on a par with the AI in tech up to the end of the middle ages, I invariably always win. The reason is because whilst in earlier ages different AI civs research different techs, by the time you get to the beginning of the industrial ages the AI ALWAYS takes the Nationalism - Communism - Fascism route.

This allows me to go for Steam Power - Industiralism (Factorys + US) - Medicine+Electricity - Scientific Method (Build ToE) - Get Atomic Theory and Electronics free (Build Hoover Dam). This always puts you in a very powerful position against the AI, being ahead with both production and tech (+money because you will have a monopoly on the above techs which the AI will pay stupid amounts of cash for). I just wish that just once I would see an AI civ go for something other than the government techs at the beginning of the industrial era.

I play on Emperor level by the way. I'm wondering about whether this is an exploit on my part and deliberately making a rule that I should do the same as the AI, but dont really think I should have to! I think any higher and it gets impossible to get anywhere near the AI in the early ages

 

[vmxa]

Move up two levels or play a variant. I keep trying IV from time to time, but it has two big problems for me. Worker task seem to not be very important and too many techs and wonders.

I guess you could say three, but techs and wonders are one and the same to me. Too bad, for me, as I like some things about the game.

 

[bhinso]

yeah i'm playing some varients now, quite keen on Double your Pleasure and Bigger Better Worlds.
I agree with you about Civ 4 having some good points (such as the city maintenance to address the ICS problem), but some bad ones. For example on the whole Civ 4 runs a lot slower for me than Civ 3, particularly in the modern era. The latest version of Civ 4 just introduced a load of (mainly) modern age techs, making the most boring era for me even worse.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

It is normal behaviour of the AI to go totally crazy about Nat, Com etc. I think they like RParts as well, but can't see it due to 'boring' Electricity.

If you see the AI behaviour as some sort of problem maybe swapping Nat & Electricity on the tech tree would better the situation.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The AI always takes their love of government techs to extremes, so that is pretty much a given that they always choose that path. Personally, I am thankful for their behavior being predictable. If you want to give the AI a break, don't research Scientific Method until you have Industrialization and Replaceable Parts first.

 

[capnvonbaron]

If you want to give the AI a break, don't research Scientific Method until you have Industrialization and Replaceable Parts first.

Most of the time I will reseach RepParts before science method just for the increased worker productivity. Especially because of all the rails that need building at the time. I also like knowing where to go to get rubber. Usually the AI starts getting belligerant around then and infantry make great deterrants.

Also most of the time ToE is waaay out of reach of the AI, who get stuck researching communism and all the useless end-of-MA techs. In the odd case the AI researches it before you, there is no reason you shouldn't have something prebuilding and be ready to pawn sci-method off them, esp. if you've been researching toward motor transport. At least for middle levels like bhinso is referring to.

 

[sixtysix]

I agree fully but I also have the problem that I don't enjoy the game as much after Monarch. I have enough stress at work.

I've instituted the "communism house rule" in order not to get an auto win. As in I "have to" research the nationalism branch first. Just like the AI does. I can usually still get Darwin's if I really try, but at least a quarter of the time I loose the race to two free techs.

I never much cared for Civ 4 really. But that being said I prefer the old battlestar galactica, I have a VCR and my pfone is attached to my wall.

 

[eldar]

I have on occasion got the AI to research Rep Parts for me. I've gifted/sold them Steam and Electricity, and researched almost as much of the tech tree as I can (seriously, including Atomic Theory & Electronics), and finally they cough up after gaining me Nationalism, Communism, Fascism, Economics, Music Theory, Navigation, Democracy, Free Artistry....

Typically when that happens, 2 or 3 different civs get it at the same time.

It's a really annoying aspect of Civ 3, and it would be nice if the tech weighting had been done differently and had more random influence.

One day, maybe, we will be able to get our hands on the C3C source and fix all the bugs. Then I'll hop on the nearest pig and fly across the Atlantic.

 

[Spoonwood]

It's a really annoying aspect of Civ 3, and it would be nice if the tech weighting had been done differently and had more random influence.

This would make keeping up in tech on upper levels quite the bear. What... a pangea Deity game where the AI got to Literature first even though I went Writing-Literature with the Iroquois? The game currently allows for this to happen sometimes, but if it happened more often, the difficulty of upper levels would go *way* up. I'll pass on that idea, but you can have it if you like I guess.

 

[eldar]

This would make keeping up in tech on upper levels quite the bear. What... a pangea Deity game where the AI got to Literature first even though I went Writing-Literature with the Iroquois? The game currently allows for this to happen sometimes, but if it happened more often, the difficulty of upper levels would go *way* up. I'll pass on that idea, but you can have it if you like I guess.

I reckon players who want to go for fast tech victories would welcome AIs who research Medicine, Electricity, Corporation, etc. for them. Even on Deity.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Sometimes I wish there was a custom difficulty level in the game. Allow the game player to adjust what kind of unit, production, worker, commerce, or other help/handicaps the AI recieves. I'd personally love a difficulty where I had to play builder/science/commerce to the extreme to keep up with the AI, but didn't have to worry about them sending a 500-unit stack of knights at me halfway through the MA.

 

[eldar]

You can play with difficulty levels in the editor. Someone once modded a game where the AI cost was 1 - i.e. everything was built at 10% base cost. Pyramids 40 shields. City growth requiring 2 food. And so on.

He won.

 

[Spoonwood]

I reckon players who want to go for fast tech victories would welcome AIs who research Medicine, Electricity, Corporation, etc. for them. Even on Deity.

I've seen them go for The Corporation. I speak as a player who often plays for a fast tech pace on Deity (see my HoF thread, if you haven't already). I won't consider Medicine, since it's a freebie if you really want a fast tech pace game. I don't like them going for Electricity, because then they might reach for the Scientific Method too soon (Universal Suffrage cascade). My strategy lately has involved going Sanitation-Electricity-Scientific Method or Electricity-Scientific Method. If you get the right AIs Nationalism (it's a freebie), then they'll often enough get Industrialization for you after they research Communism or Fascism. Especially on Deity.

I'd personally love a difficulty where I had to play builder/science/commerce to the extreme to keep up with the AI, but didn't have to worry about them sending a 500-unit stack of knights at me halfway through the MA.

And that's another reason to "upgrade" to Conquests. I think Vanilla has the "normal" aggressive setting no matter what you play. In Conquests you have 5 different agreesion settings, so if you play with least aggressive AI you won't get attacked all that often and can often play such a game. And they don't war as much with each other also. Not hogging techs and luxuries can also help the situation.

 

[capnvonbaron]

And that's another reason to "upgrade" to Conquests. I think Vanilla has the "normal" aggressive setting no matter what you play. In Conquests you have 5 different agreesion settings, so if you play with least aggressive AI you won't get attacked all that often and can often play such a game. And they don't war as much with each other also. Not hogging techs and luxuries can also help the situation.

Yeah thats not so bad of an idea... I don't horde techs persay, luxs sometimes. But I've had plenty of games on Emporer where something like a pissy Bizzy shows up in 2000BC with a stack of archers and warriors out-of-the-blue and procedes to terrorize my only two cities, just declaring war and not even demanding anything as tribute. It seems like some games, the first few AIs I meet are already annoyed with me, despite them having more cities, more units, more techs, and I haven't even had the opportunity to blow my rep yet or crowd their borders.

 

[Spoonwood]

You can play with difficulty levels in the editor. Someone once modded a game where the AI cost was 1 - i.e. everything was built at 10% base cost. Pyramids 40 shields. City growth requiring 2 food. And so on.

He won.

Do you mean Bamspeedy's "Beyond Sid" game? Because that game, I think, had a slower tech pace than many Sid, or Deity for that matter, games... so in *some* ways it came out easier. The tech pace there actually ended up ridiculously slow. He also says "I should note here, that this game is suffering from the max # of units (4.096 for all civs combined). This is hurting me and the AI, but I believe it was hurting Egypt more so than me. Once you hit the max # of units, you still get notification that you built a unit, but the unit simply does not appear. I believe this is one reason Egypt had hardly any re-inforcements at all after I killed their SODs. All they had was the usual 3 defensive units/city." Don't get me wrong. It's actually a very well played game and a good thread to read. Concepts like the Funnel of Doom actually premiere there (at least so far as I can tell), but don't get named such. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=66169&page=2

 

[Spoonwood]

The AIs also have a better base attitude towards when you meet with lower aggressive setting... with the least aggressive setting they often have a polite attitude towards me initially no matter the level.

 

[Richie0]

this is the main reason why you just take off when you hit the industrial age

even if AI didn't get bogged down with the government techs, you'd still roar ahead

rails + factories + increased work productivity + artillery stacks

AI has no chance

though, i must admit, i do get turned on by watching the AI throw cavalry and knights at my infantry fortified in metropolises

i have genuinely never seen the AI attack me with marines or tanks

they simply do not make it that far, and if they do, they don't have the resources or the skill to use them effectively

the only chance the AI has of winning in the industrial age is if you've either fannied around or f**ked up so hilariously that they are 6-8 techs ahead and control half the world

but that's not theirs to claim. that's pure and simple f**k up on the human player's part

 

[Richie0]

as for the AIs being annoyed (in attitude) and being annoying (declaring war) at the start, i get it sometimes

it's a side effect of choosing random everything

notable arseholes are: zulu, mongols, persia, germany, russia, hittities, vikings

anyone aggressive basically

a barracks and a few archers usually avoids this

 

[Lanzelot]

a barracks and a few archers usually avoids this

And some culture. And embassies. The AI gets much more polite, if you have some culture and embassies with them.

 

[Richie0]

And some culture. And embassies. The AI gets much more polite, if you have some culture and embassies with them.

this is true. i always establish embassies early. it does make a difference

you don't have any use for gold in depotism, might as well spend it

ok, you do use some gold in trades, but everyone has bugger all at that stage so it's mostly tech for tech

edit: arabia is also an arsehole. he can't take it when you out research him even when he has his expansionist advantage