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AI not upgrading units breaks the game

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by georgjorge, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    I came from IV, which I adored, so I was skeptical about VI. But I bought it, and I had a lot of fun with it. Many of the new things work well together. Many of the perceived "flaws" of VI work perfectly fine for me, and others don't bother my experience too much.

    But the AI not upgrading its units - if it is not fixed - will be the reason for me to not play this game anymore.

    On Immortal, as soon as I reach the techs for Crossbows and Knights, I have as good as won because I'm fighting mostly Archers, Spearmen and Warriors even though the AI is already in the Renaissance or Industrial era. This is not a challenge at all. Why would I compete for military techs with the AI if they don't get the new units anyway? Why would I try to keep them from attacking through diplomacy if their outdated units will never take my cities anyway? What fun is there in winning battles against Warriors and Slingers in the Industrial era?

    This one thing breaks the game; and it was known before release (see developers' comments during Battle Royale); and it should be somewhat easy to fix. So please do it, Firaxis.
     
  2. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    I agree with your concerns. It has something to do with the scarcity of resources, gaps in unit trees and dead-end techs.

    Here's one mod you can try out if you'd rather not wait for an official fix. I don't think it's made an appearance here yet.
     
    kaspergm and Xenotitan like this.
  3. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    Thanks a lot! I will immediately try this out. Hopefully something official coming soon...
     
  4. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Ooh, this mod looks really nice, thanks for posting this here. I think I'm going to try out the watered down version of it next game (the one where having a unit without the strategic resource gives it -5 combat strength, but lets you build it).
     
  5. ThunderLizard2

    ThunderLizard2 Warlord

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    One of many problems with the AI that needs to be fixed
     
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  6. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Emperor

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    Why is it so hard to program the AI to upgrade its units? Is it hard to get the AI to move its units into its own territory to upgrade, and then move back out to where they were? Hard to program AI to prioritize money for upgrading? Hard to get the AI to save up enough money for it?

    Was this a problem in past civs? I dont' even remember.
     
    Zuizgond likes this.
  7. idjit

    idjit Chieftain

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    I finally completed a game as Rome (sci vic) and it was really jarring to see Gandhi humping my borders with knights and elephants in the info era (If I read that little tech bar thingie with the AI's heads, I think he was at least in modern). I had a few modern armors parked here and there, thermonuclear warheads and the bombers to deliver them.

    In CIV V, at least immortal (for me cuz I'm dum) it felt like a tremendous accomplishment to field infantry while your opponents were still fielding rifleman.

    My missile cruisers scout the undiscovered country to see my competition fielding warriors and catapults? lol wut. What I find even - somehow - worse is seeing an AI fielding 1 missile cruiser in a pile of caravels. I don't think missile cruisers take any strategics? They might, but I don't remember. So the AI has the wherewithall to upgrade, and then, doesn't?
     
  8. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    Upgrade paths are also weird, and there's even more tech splitting and beelining possibilities in VI than in V. It's possible to go the entire game without archery, it's possible to get the ability to do the mars landing without mining, and you can get far on one tech tree without starting the other. This might happen more frequently to the AI than we think, I know I did it accidentally once, researching the mars landing mission without cavalry, so if I were an AI in that scenario, its possible my programming would have been telling me to spam horsemen for quite some time.
     
  9. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    In IV on higher levels, the AI was even notorious for upgrading all of its army within one or two turns as they got hugely reduced upgrade costs (upgrading was more expensive than in VI for the player). Hence the popular term "magic Rifles", where you are beating down medieval AI units with Cuirassiers, and suddenly they all turn to Rifles and you just can't win.

    Oh, and Archery also was a dead-end tech there...but somehow the AI still managed to tech it and get Archers, Longbows and so on.
     
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  10. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

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    Agreed. This is has to be a top priority to fix. In the early game AI and barbs can be tough but if you can survive long enough, AI will never advance past crossbows, catapults and knights and then the game becomes easy mode on any difficulty level.

    I also don't buy the lack of resources excuse either. In my last game I got so bored, I gifted my strategic resources to various AI civs and waited to see what they would do. They still didn't upgrade or build newer units. At the end of the game Cleo kept telling me how weak my army is just because she had like 25 spearmen and crossbows while I had a smaller force of information era units that could have easily rolled over her outdated units.
     
  11. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    The spearmen could be explained if the AI never researches the tech for pikes, that's another dead end research. Not sure why you'd program the AI to not go after dead end techs though, it seems silly for AIs to avoid them.

    I wonder if there's a way to mod how the AI counts units, and make it count every upgrade as more than double every unit before then. So, instead of counting a battleship at 70 strength, it should count battleships at the strength of like 4 frigates. Maybe that would change its prioritization to a more upgraded army?
     
  12. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    In Civ IV Vanilla, the AI got a massive 85% discount on upgrading units on all difficulty levels; it was somewhat reduced by BTS either directly with that expansion are in a patch to it; but it was still sufficent.

    In Civ V, the AI also got a discount to upgrading units on all difficulty levels, similar to the Civ IV BTS one.

    Civ VI introduces increased maintenance cost for later era units; this is causing the AI to want to save money by keeping ancient era units. In some cases resources is also a factor.
     
  13. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Hmmm.... I wonder if AI units should all just auto-upgrade as soon as they acquire the resource.
     
  14. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Which is why I have wondered aloud on many threads: What did developers see on Turn 200 and beyond that made them Happy with the current state of things? It's like they always tested first 150 turns and then called it a day.

    There are few things more important than having a modern military. For myself, there are many other things I don't like about how this game is post-200, but AI inferior units is, to quote the OP, totally game-breaking. And given that this is not a "new" problem, and we're in Civ VI, and the guys who did this did BNW, where the AI definitely knows how to upgrade its military... I'm just stunned.
     
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  15. Ozisl

    Ozisl Warlord

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    This would assume that they use actual resources.
     
  16. footslogger

    footslogger Warlord

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    The failure to upgrade units, along with other AI problems, has already stopped me playing the game until improvements are made.
     
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  17. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    If the problem is resources, Firaxis needs to add more units to the game. Like generic versions of the better units. Didn't Civ4 have this? I can't remember it's been so long. This is especially bad when units go obsolete. Then you can't build anything. This may be happening to the ai as well. There needs to be something that can be built if you lack the resources to build the "good" unit.

    This could fix some of the upgrade issues. Because I do see the AI upgrading units in my game. I see ironclads all the time in my game. The AI likes to beeline towards that tech for some reason. And they have ironclads way before me.
     
  18. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    couldn't agree more this is what happened to me last night

    this is how brain dead the ai currently is.

    i'm playing on KING i have rome to my left and brazil to my right and i'm right in the middle of them. both HATE ME and have way more tech than me but don't even bother using it. they have a ****load of units all horseman, spearman and catapults yet they are in the modern era! now if they wanted to they could both gang up on me and i would really be in trouble. i have only a few musketman and field cannons as well as a bombard in each city defending my capital and surrounding cities. but what do they end up doing? rome instead wants to trade with me and wants open borders so he can send his units through my territory to try and fail miserably and capturing brazil!! in the meantime norway has done a few surprise attacks on me and failed miserably against my battleships and field cannons the dumbass sends his units through the water right up to my battlehsips which i can easily pick off i easily I took 3 of his cities but now he call me a WM even though he started the war LOL! now why rome and brazil have been fighting i've easily caught up in tech and now in the information era and ready to build my spaceport and the ship...which i don't even think the AI even knows how to do that either?!
     
  19. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    After playing a couple of games, I really recommend the mod mentioned in the second post. It allows civs to build units without having the appropriate resource, at the cost of lower combat strength (they get the original strength when you have the resource). And it works! City states and AIs actually build *gasp* Archers and Swordsmen! Maybe they will even get Musketeers and Knights later?

    I'm still not sure why an amateur modder was needed to provide a temporary solution to a big problem that the developers knew about, but there it is.
     
    cairnsy44 likes this.
  20. wiggawuu

    wiggawuu Warlord

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    Because the game developers are crap.
     

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