1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

AI & Promotions

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by tothePAIN, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Vox Populi Community,

    I've noticed that the AI often has level 4 units but they are not upgraded optimally. For example, I've playing a game right now and fighting the Zulu, who has a level 4 archer with Accuracy 3 and Indirect Fire. If it were me, that archer would be upgraded to Accuracy 3 and range.

    I'm not a programmer, but could the AI be programmed to upgrade to the powerful level 4 upgrades? I.e. Stalwart & March for melee, Logistics and Range for ranged?

    Or would this make the AI too hard?
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,457
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    We purposely made promotions flexible, or AI friendly, meaning that even when picked randomly, AI could make something out of it.

    Vanilla promotions where rough and flat terrain were given bonuses was quite the opposite, and very hard for the AI to make good combos. But if you look at how current promotion trees are built, you'll notice that most promotions work together. For example indirect fire ends up being taken along extra range and medic, which is much better than being taken along logistics or infiltration. You could argue that it's better to get extra range first, indirect fire later (though it really depends on the terrain), but overall it's working quite well.
     
  3. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Indirect Fire has its situational uses, although I tend to prioritize it on siege units, not ranged.
     
  4. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2010
    Messages:
    947
    I don't know if something has to (and can) be done on what AI pick at level 4 but I believe AI tactical skill could be improved on what AI pick on L1, L2, L3 for its melee Units.
    I notice often AI picking Drill (bonus vs city) whatever the circonstances.
    e.g. : A CS is attacked badly. I give 2 longswords to him to resist the wicked agression and guess what? Drill is picked instead Schock or Cover. Let's call that Artifacial Unintelligence.
     
  5. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Indirect fire has its uses... but the right promotion for a lvl 4 ranged unit should be logistics or range 90% of the time.
     
  6. sSs1897

    sSs1897 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2018
    Messages:
    27
    It depends on terrain...

    On a map with mostly rough terrains range has almost no use without indirect fire. You often cant even fire at enemies 2 grids from you due to sight limitation.
     
    phantomaxl1207, tu_79 and vyyt like this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,457
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    Agree. What comes back to the AI logic on promotions being too difficult to predict, and our best option is still having promotions upgrades that are AI friendly. Guys, that was a tough design we took back then, trying to balance fun and meaningful promotions with AI friendliness. I call it a success.
     
    mystikx21 likes this.
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,228
    Location:
    Beijing
    I notice a ton of AI units with indirect fire. Its a niche promotion, range is certainly better by default, if they can only get one they should get range. I don't think I've ever taken indirect fire on an archer unit that didn't already have ranged.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    Look - I know that indirect fire is useful in rough terrain... but as @CrazyG said, its a niche promotion.

    I've never seen the AI select stalwart, march, range or logistics on their level 4 units unless its with a unique unit that already has that promotion. Never. Those are the promotions that most affect my playing style and ability to win against the AI late game. Has anyone else?
     
    CrazyG and Kim Dong Un like this.
  10. bitula

    bitula Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Is it possible to see AI promotions in an informative way? I know you can see the icons, but I don't know by heart what they mean. Can I get their name/description by hovering or clicking somewhere, like for my own units?
     
  11. Bhawb

    Bhawb Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2018
    Messages:
    498
    I'll be honest never once have I paid attention to what the AI promotions are.

    If you play with the unique promotion icons they're much easier to distinguish. Indirect fire is the one where it looks like it is shooting over a mountain.
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,229
    Location:
    ohio
    ^This. I don't pay much attention to what the AI uses. Their units either die or not too quickly to pay much attention to try to snuff out or avoid a specific unit based on its promotions. The most tactical planning I end up using is to go after the unit potentially doing the most damage next turn (siege units often) or killing off a melee unit around a city.

    IDF as a player I would take only situationally and try to position my units to deal with terrain. The AI does not seem to seek to position to stack its archers or cannons on hills with clear LOS over the surrounding ground and park them there to command the area, so it becomes far less niche-y for the AI. They can always fight that way even if range or logistics would be a better pick for long run for my own upgrades. It is better if they can do 90% damage than 0%. Also means you could have to use mobile units to go hunt them down in the forest as a tactical problem rather than being able to shoot back.

    This is already a vast improvement over the terrain-based promos in default even if it is not perfect.

    Would agree stalwart or cover ought to take a high priority for AI melee units and shock over drill, particularly for mobile units.
     
  13. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    367
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pyongyang
    Like Bhawb said, combine the unique promo icons (now packaged with default VP) with this mod https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/promotion-flags-eui.26763/

    This obviously requires you to be using EUI.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,046
    Ultimately I feel that Drill is the easier promotion to use. Shock requires more understanding of flanking, march requires finesse. Drill is a bit more of a "hammer". It "just works" against cities, promotions like stalwart and cover just give you solid extra survivability.

    So while I wouldn't mind seeing if the AI can be given more promotion understanding, I don't think a baseline of drill is a bad thing.

    I do agree with others that for range units, the AI would be better served if it just defaulted to logistics or ranged for its high end promotions.
     
    bigcat88 likes this.
  15. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,229
    Location:
    ohio
    Shock on mobile units does not require that much finesse, mobile units can tend to come in off the flank already. Drill is good as a default on melee units. It still adds 10% even if it doesn't maximize combat strength in the field. In many/some combat circumstances with defined lines of battle around a city or border flanking wouldn't show up in the first place to be concerned about, and the bonus against cities always works for that.

    I do not think the comparison for stalwart or cover or march is taking drill/shock. They are later end upgrades (level 3-4-5 at earliest). Drill and shock mostly compare to each other until later in the game. Stalwart or cover could be useful for the AI at that point (level 4). March a little less so (but still handy). I find it primarily needs survivability in combat, if only to run off with a unit before I can kill it or to deal out a little more damage to any counterstrikes and slow me down a turn or two to heal or withdraw. Preserves their higher XP units a little better that way also.

    I would say IDF is probably a better default unless the AI handles terrain positioning very intelligently with ranged units, as a human player would. If they have a lot of flat terrain around, range or logistics would obviously work better but in many circumstances their ranged units won't be able to shoot without IDF. Ex: I tend to use jungles or forests on my borders as barricades to slow down rival invaders and hide more of my units behind or in them as reserves for counterstrikes and healing. They can't shoot at me at all unless they have it, or will have to move around their archers to try to so. FoW is then the only issue. Range or logistics doesn't help without LOS. If they have to march the archers right up into the forest to shoot at me then they're dead before they even get off a shot. IDF they are doing damage to me and I have to get around a meat shield of pikes or swords first to get at them. It works in the same way drill works, it's situational but it's an easy to grasp situation. Can I shoot, yes or no and the answer is most often yes with IDF than with range, for the AI. For a human, no.

    Yes a human player will take logistics or range 90% of the time but these aren't humans.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  16. bitula

    bitula Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    I think I have it (it was bundled in Vox install). Note my problem is that I cant hover the mouse over those icons to see the description in case it is not my own unit. Or am I doing something wrong? On my own units I can definetely get more info than just the icons.
     
  17. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,806
    Nope. Promotion Flag EUI is the mod that makes small promotion icons appearing on top of every unit (if you follow the link, there is a screenshot). So you can hover over the icons on top of every units to see their effect. Note that it only works for promotions earned, promotions native to units are not displayed on top of them.
     
  18. bitula

    bitula Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Uhhhh, It seems I dont understand: on the screenshot I see the same icons and hints (descriptions) I have by just installing vox bundle. What is the difference? Is this mod needed to see descriptions of icons on enemy units? In the original my only problem is that I cannot hover mouse cursor over enemy unit icons, because the panel (or popup? I cant recall.) disappears as soon as I move the cursor away from the enemy unit itself. Is this what is fixed in this mod?
     
  19. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,806
    CivFig.png

    You will need to hover over those small yellow icons.
     
  20. bitula

    bitula Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Oh! OK! Thx! Can these small yellow icons be toggled away from view? I wouldn't want to see them all the time, only when I need to read the hints of the one I am about to attack.
     

Share This Page