AI says 'our worst enemy'

[Woodreaux]

Caveat: I hope I'm starting a thread about something that already has a million threads already.

Do the AI leaders have their own prescribed $H1T-lists? As in, does Toku always hate Monty (who am I kidding, everyone hates Monty!), or does Hupaq always hate George Washington or do certain leaders statistically do things that tend to annoy other specific leaders just about every game? In general, do certain leader always to tend to hate bad attitudes towards other specific leaders from the get-go?

 

[Sephlock]

Hupaq? As in, an ancient Inca rapper?

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Seriously though, I wonder about the AI's methods of determining who to hate also.

I don't see any reason why they should hate me so much when they are the ones who declared war out of the blue, and I simply held my ground. If anything, there should be a grudging respect there, not hatred.

 

[Spearthrower]

Not towards specific leaders, but some AI's are more or less amenable on a variety of factors. Some are very unaccepting of other religions, some are very happy when you run their favourite civic, others will become very friendly if you accept their demands, while others will hate you forever if you refuse those demands.

To a lesser degree than with the human-AI... the AI-AI will also run into these diplomatic + and -, so while there isn't a prescribed hate list (which would be boring in a sandbox game) there will be tendencies for particular AI's to rack up enemies or allies.

 

[Bhruic]

Actually, the AI do have a "hate list", although obviously other factors will come into play with it. But Brennus is almost always going to "hate" Gandhi (and vice versa), while Lincoln and Elizabeth are going to get along well.

Grab the "peace weight" chart from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=244799

The basic way to interpret the chart - the closer together two civs are on the chart, the more they will like each other. The farther apart they are, the more they will dislike each other. People in blue/green will generally like others, while people in red generally dislike others. Finally, if both Civs have the big solid, or dotted border, they will get along better.

oedali gives a good example, but I'll give another based on what I mentioned above. Take Brennus and Gandhi:
4 - (10 - 0) = -6
So both Brennus and Gandhi have a -6 penalty with each other. For Gandhi, however, that is tempered with a +2 base attitude, and for Brennus, a -1 base attitude. Because Gandhi has a thin border, there is no weighting for "warmonger respect".

So in the final result, Gandhi is going to have a -4 modifier towards Brennus, and Brennus is going to have a -7 modifier towards Gandhi. They are almost certainly going to dislike each other.

Bh

 

[KMadCandy]

this thread is very math-y and code-y if you want the details.

one thing some folks don't know is that a civ doesn't necessarily have a worst enemy at all times. their worst enemy is whoever they're annoyed or furious with that they like the least. if they're cautious or higher with everybody, then nobody is their enemy and they won't come by demanding that you stop trading with anybody, which is heaven for me!

 

[Arlborn]

one thing some folks don't know is that a civ doesn't necessarily have a worst enemy at all times. their worst enemy is whoever they're annoyed or furious with that they like the least. if they're cautious or higher with everybody, then nobody is their enemy and they won't come by demanding that you stop trading with anybody, which is heaven for me!

Oh, great that you told me that! I always wanted to know for sure hehe.

 

[KMadCandy]

Oh, great that you told me that! I always wanted to know for sure hehe.

it's one of those things where i'm like "maaaaaaaybe everybody reading this thread already knows it, but i think it's so helpful that i'll type it to be sure." so now you know!

 

[MrFelony]

usually their worst enemy is someone that they've been at war with. i was the worst enemy of someone who was please with me before lol (i haaad declared war on him twice those)

 

[KMadCandy]

usually their worst enemy is someone that they've been at war with. i was the worst enemy of someone who was please with me before lol (i haaad declared war on him twice those)

yeah i love how you can be their worst enemy and simultaneously have "-4 you have traded with our worst enemy!" they're so fickle about who they hate at any given time. what's a war or two between former friends?

 

[oedali]

Grab the "peace weight" chart from http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=244799

I'm glad my chart is becoming useful.

Another thing to remember is that this attitude modifier that the AI's have towards each other is invisible, meaning that you don't see the number value in the glance screen but it affects relations. Which is why on the glance screen you will see Genghis Khan and Montezuma being pleased with each other even when they're at -1, (they have a permanent +5 with each other), but Montezuma will be annoyed at Hatshepsut even at +2. (he has a permanent -6 to her)

 

[Bhruic]

Oh, I see the numbers, but I modified my game to display them.

Another number to keep in mind is that in Prince or higher difficulty level, everyone has a -1 diplo modifier to everyone else. So you'd need to add that into your "will someone be annoyed" calculations.

Bh

 

[KMadCandy]

about "who's my worst enemy" and invisible modifiers:

the "who's my worst enemy" code does the "am i cautious or higher with everybody" first, so it isn't possible that they'll show as cautious but actually resent somebody enough invisibly that they consider them a worst enemy. but a reliable source reports that

There are only four instances were the AI uses the Attitude Value (i.e. the integer value):
Diplomacy Vote
Determine Worst Enemy
Determine which city to nuke
Become Vassal while at Peace

so for those 4 things, their decision is based on the numbers, and of course some of those numbers are invisible. so if you're hyper-super-careful with ongoing trades because you hate demands to cancel them, which i am, you can't go strictly by what you see. "genghis is annoyed with both gandhi (-3) and monty (-4) so i'm safe to trade with gandhi" won't be the whole story. with all the warmonger respect and stuff, chances are very high that gandhi's total score behind the scenes is lower than monty is, so gandhi wins the worst enemy trophy.

 

[oedali]

Oh, I see the numbers, but I modified my game to display them.

Oh wow, how do you do that? That would make life so much easier!

 

[Spiceweasel]

I played a game once where Boudica kept insisting that I stop trading with her vassal. Talk about kicking them when they're down!

 

[LegionSteve]

it's one of those things where i'm like "maaaaaaaybe everybody reading this thread already knows it, but i think it's so helpful that i'll type it to be sure." so now you know!

I've been playing Civ games for years and I didn't know that one, so thanks

 

[Bhruic]

Oh wow, how do you do that? That would make life so much easier!

Do you have Visual Studio 2003 and are able to recompile the DLL SDK? If so, I can PM you the code changes I made that'll enable you to see it. If not, well, I guess I can't. But it's a pretty simple change, you just need to change the display string(s).

Bh

 

[oedali]

Do you have Visual Studio 2003 and are able to recompile the DLL SDK? If so, I can PM you the code changes I made that'll enable you to see it. If not, well, I guess I can't. But it's a pretty simple change, you just need to change the display string(s).

Bh

Hmmm, no I don't but it might be worth it to learn it just for this. Is there a free/trial version of it to download? Also, does your "fix" also change the values shown on the glance screen so it takes into account these invisible modifiers? Even if it doesn't it's still worth it I guess.

(I'm no programmer although I have some basic skills.. the only 'modding' I did was with Python, where I changed the column order on the tech trading screen so that the 'can research' column comes last. Pretty minor but I never look at that so made my life much easier.

 

[Woodreaux]

The links are great! I appreciate everyone's responses. The AIs' diplomacy has been kind of a black box to me. It's nice to peer inside. Diplomacy is typically the weakest part of my game and I end up diverting waaaay more resources to the military than I initially plan to. I'm trying to score a different kind of win than Domination!

 

[KMadCandy]

i did forget something!

VASSALS CAN MAKE A MESS OF THINGS

the whole "worst enemy" thing is for trading of course. when the AI is deciding whether to trade with you or not, they're evaluating their attitude towards your "team". usually a team is a PA, and/or a team you set up in the custom game screen. but for tech trades, it gets weird, because your team there is defined to also include any vassals you have.

so, how the AI really feels about you for "should i trade or shouldn't i?" calculations changes if you have somebody else on your team. if you do, then he has to be Friendly with every team member to actually count as Friendly with you. but that isn't reflected on the diplo screen, that screen only shows you how he feels about each individual leader.

that's why sometimes you get hit with "we fear you are becoming too advanced" even tho friendly status over-rides that; vassals can change it so that you're not really at friendly. and it is in theory possible to have so many vassals that an AI hates so much that when he averages out his attitude toward the team, "you" (meaning your team, but it counts vs. you of course) are his worst enemy even tho the diplo screen tells you that he's pleased with you.

the "no worst enemy if cautious or higher with everybody" rule still works tho. if he's not annoyed with anybody then he obviously isn't annoyed with your vassals, so yay! if he's furious with your vassals, you kind of know he's not going to be overjoyed that you're trading with them. but if you don't know about this whole "team" thing (which isn't intuitive, at least to me), it can be really puzzling. it doesn't happen very often, i've never had it in a game, but i've seen screenshots of Shaka telling someone "we will never trade with you, our worst enemy!" while he was pleased with the guy. the player had at least 2, i think 3, vassals. basically, don't go around vassalizing too many jerks if you want to trade with the non-jerks .

you would check me into a mental hospital or something if you saw how often i check the diplo screen during some games. i like to play OCC and go for diplomatic victory without killing off a lot of folks. obviously i'm not going to have enough votes to matter, so i micromanage all my trades and babysit who's getting along with who, etc. and then i vote for my opponent for giggles .

 

[Bhruic]

Hmmm, no I don't but it might be worth it to learn it just for this. Is there a free/trial version of it to download? Also, does your "fix" also change the values shown on the glance screen so it takes into account these invisible modifiers? Even if it doesn't it's still worth it I guess.

To be honest, I can't remember if there's a free/trial version or not. You might want to check the modding forum. And yes, it also modifies the "glance" screen so that all the numbers shown there are the true numbers (so you won't have a green +9, for example).

(I'm no programmer although I have some basic skills.. the only 'modding' I did was with Python, where I changed the column order on the tech trading screen so that the 'can research' column comes last. Pretty minor but I never look at that so made my life much easier.

The actual change would be really simple, you just cut and paste some code in, and recompile. There's an .xml change that goes with it so that you have some text instead of just "-1", and I haven't done any translations on that.

I could do it up myself, but unfortunately I've only done it in context of my local "tweak" mod, so I'd have a hard time separating it from the rest of my tweaks.

Bh