AI seems to not be doing a good job of prehistoric research.

[Arkenor]

I'm not sure whether this is a bug exactly, but something seems not right.

I'm playing a Pangea game with Revision 5124.

The problem is, my enemies are just sitting around being useless. We're still in prehistoric times, but I'm about to get Sedentary Lifestyle. I already have 4 cities from using the Tribal settler. And I've scooped every single wonder that was available to me too.

My 20 opponents, however, still all have 1 city each. I don't think any even have Tribal yet. When I played the stable ver 28, with exactly the same settings (though a different map type), they usually had as many cities as I did, and often rather more.

I've attached the save in case anyone is curious. I'm not sure exactly what my opponents are doing, but they're clearly not very interested in research. Are they perhaps not using the Creature Myths for extra research? Did none of them pick the scientific trait? It just seems very odd.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just for clarification, what difficulty setting is your game on? I've found the AI isn't all that bad at keeping up with me (at least close) on Noble level until late Prehistoric moving into Ancient where I start pulling away.

The Creature myths can also be kinda a hit and miss luck factor, and goody huts can also cause a lot of early game imbalance if the results are somewhat unfairly weighted... The scientific trait is a factor, sure, but it shouldn't be THAT big a factor in the early game really.

 

[Koshling]

I'm not sure whether this is a bug exactly, but something seems not right.

I'm playing a Pangea game with Revision 5124.

The problem is, my enemies are just sitting around being useless. We're still in prehistoric times, but I'm about to get Sedentary Lifestyle. I already have 4 cities from using the Tribal settler. And I've scooped every single wonder that was available to me too.

My 20 opponents, however, still all have 1 city each. I don't think any even have Tribal yet. When I played the stable ver 28, with exactly the same settings (though a different map type), they usually had as many cities as I did, and often rather more.

I've attached the save in case anyone is curious. I'm not sure exactly what my opponents are doing, but they're clearly not very interested in research. Are they perhaps not using the Creature Myths for extra research? Did none of them pick the scientific trait? It just seems very odd.

I presume you didn't have AI logging turned on? I suggest you turn it on now and take a look at the BBAI logs - that will tell you what they research, what thy beeline, what they decide to build, and provide a summary each turn of their current buildings (including things like myths) and output (including science)

 

[Arkenor]

I was playing on Prince. I don't know C2C very well yet, so I didn't want to handicap myself too much. I think I found one tech goody hut in total. The ver 28 game was also on Prince though, and I didn't see this problem.

Afraid I didn't have the logging running. I'll make sure I do for my next game. I'm going to restart on a higher difficulty, and hope that that brings about a fairer fight.

 

[Koshling]

I was playing on Prince. I don't know C2C very well yet, so I didn't want to handicap myself too much. I think I found one tech goody hut in total. The ver 28 game was also on Prince though, and I didn't see this problem.

Afraid I didn't have the logging running. I'll make sure I do for my next game. I'm going to restart on a higher difficulty, and hope that that brings about a fairer fight.

Ok. Turn logging on then set BBAI logging level to 3 in the BUG logging options. Every session I will overwrite BBAI.log, so be sure to save them after a session if they look interesting.

You'll find that each player turn starts with a summary (search for 'stats for turn '). The rest of the log is stream-of-consciousness decisions, which is rather less readable and more detailed.

Generally checking the AI stats at the end of a session (if you don't mind seeing them) is a good way to check it's 'doing ok'

 

[Arkenor]

Will do! It just seemed really odd that nobody had Tribal hundreds of turns after I'd gotten it. I guess some of them should have beelined for it? The expansionist ones at any rate.

 

[Koshling]

Will do! It just seemed really odd that nobody had Tribal hundreds of turns after I'd gotten it. I guess some of them should have beelined for it? The expansionist ones at any rate.

Yes, it's certainly odd.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

It may not be significant, but in my last game with the Revision from a couple of days ago, on Epic at Immortal (to Diety after 75 turns), I was the first to Shamanism. I'll start a new game tonight with v29 & AI logging, & see if anything seems off.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It may not be significant, but in my last game with the Revision from a couple of days ago, on Epic at Immortal (to Diety after 75 turns), I was the first to Shamanism. I'll start a new game tonight with v29 & AI logging, & see if anything seems off.

Fail to see the significance of you getting to Shamanism 1st. If you are consisitently getting to Tribalism or Sedentary Life 1st on Immortal or Deity there might be concern. But not for Shaman or Druid.

JosEPh

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Fail to see the significance of you getting to Shamanism 1st. If you are consisitently getting to Tribalism or Sedentary Life 1st on Immortal or Deity there might be concern. But not for Shaman or Druid.

JosEPh

Fair enough, I was just throwing it out there

 

[Lenneth]

I also find it easy to get ahead easily on immortal with the last revisions. I also think that its too easy to slow down the closest AIs with thiefs, etc. Hopefully the AI will learn to always protect its workers with a unit and get on with the harass with such thief units in a better timing. I mean, on immortal a thief unit should be harrasing me before I'm able to get the means to see it, right?
City raider III Archers have been winning me the game too early lately.

 

[Koshling]

I also find it easy to get ahead easily on immortal with the last revisions. I also think that its too easy to slow down the closest AIs with thiefs, etc. Hopefully the AI will learn to always protect its workers with a unit and get on with the harass with such thief units in a better timing. I mean, on immortal a thief unit should be harrasing me before I'm able to get the means to see it, right?
City raider III Archers have been winning me the game too early lately.

Need AI logs to see what's going on.

Also the AI SHOULD be defending its workers always outside of its own territory, and anyway once a few attacks within its own territory (from thieves etc.) have taken place. If that's not happening we need save games that show circumstances with unprotected workers in areas hat have recently had other workers killed.

 

[Lenneth]

Here's a save. Next turn, Spanish should also leave another gatherer unprotected.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I also find it easy to get ahead easily on immortal with the last revisions. I also think that its too easy to slow down the closest AIs with thiefs, etc. Hopefully the AI will learn to always protect its workers with a unit and get on with the harass with such thief units in a better timing. I mean, on immortal a thief unit should be harrasing me before I'm able to get the means to see it, right?
City raider III Archers have been winning me the game too early lately.

I've encountered the same thing - in my current game (Large/Epic, about Rev. 5160, started on Immortal & then up to Diety on turn 65), I was the first to Sedentary Lifestyle (turn 163).

I also agree that the AI needs to do a better job of defending against Rogues, Ambushers, etc. Right now I find it too easy to cripple my nearest neighbours by using Rogues - they spent a couple dozen turns with no improvements whatsoever, because my Rogues pillaged them all & took out many of the Gatherers that were sent to replace them. A couple of other things I've noticed with the AI & Rogues, etc.

1. While I do see the AI sometimes protect its Gatherers, all I have to do is wait until they're done & go back to pillage the tile, as the AI will often leave it undefended. Just a single Axeman or Atlatist would stop me.

2. I haven't seen the AI use Rogues, etc. defensively, which they should do if I'm (or anyone else) is using them. The AI does build Rogues, but it appears they use them offensively. Perhaps if the AI is under heavy Rogue attack & can't build Trained Dogs yet, the AI might build a Rogue & keep it in the city, to spot attacking Rogues, etc.?

 

[Koshling]

I've encountered the same thing - in my current game (Large/Epic, about Rev. 5160, started on Immortal & then up to Diety on turn 65), I was the first to Sedentary Lifestyle (turn 163).

I also agree that the AI needs to do a better job of defending against Rogues, Ambushers, etc. Right now I find it too easy to cripple my nearest neighbours by using Rogues - they spent a couple dozen turns with no improvements whatsoever, because my Rogues pillaged them all & took out many of the Gatherers that were sent to replace them. A couple of other things I've noticed with the AI & Rogues, etc.

1. While I do see the AI sometimes protect its Gatherers, all I have to do is wait until they're done & go back to pillage the tile, as the AI will often leave it undefended. Just a single Axeman or Atlatist would stop me.

2. I haven't seen the AI use Rogues, etc. defensively, which they should do if I'm (or anyone else) is using them. The AI does build Rogues, but it appears they use them offensively. Perhaps if the AI is under heavy Rogue attack & can't build Trained Dogs yet, the AI might build a Rogue & keep it in the city, to spot attacking Rogues, etc.?

Keeping a rogue in the city is usually a bad policy due to the crime it generates. Admittedly crime isn't something with terrible effects early on, but unfortunately the way the AI understands crime is not something that is easily made dependent on context

Edit - I'd really like to see some AI logs from anyone playing on high levels that manages to be ahead in prehistoric era research, as it should be nearly impossible unless something is going badly wrong.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Keeping a rogue in the city is usually a bad policy due to the crime it generates. Admittedly crime isn't something with terrible effects early on, but unfortunately the way the AI understands crime is not something that is easily made dependent on context

Edit - I'd really like to see some AI logs from anyone playing on high levels that manages to be ahead in prehistoric era research, as it should be nearly impossible unless something is going badly wrong.

How exactly do you turn the AI logs on? I've tried before, but haven't seen any file that looks like the AI log.

True enough about Rogues in cities, I forgot about that. Perhaps instead they could circle around the city? Still, as you say, the key is context, & I can imagine the difficulties in making the understanding context-sensitive.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Added a line to the Single Player Bug thread opening post giving a brief description of how to turn it on and where the log file can be found.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Edit - I'd really like to see some AI logs from anyone playing on high levels that manages to be ahead in prehistoric era research, as it should be nearly impossible unless something is going badly wrong.

Figured out how to get the AI logs. If I took the game I mentioned above & starting logging from the point I was first to Sedentary Lifestyle, would the logs be of any value to you? FWIW, I looked at the log a couple of turns after I got to Sedentary Lifestyle, & noticed I had the highest science output at 124, as compared values ranging from about 50 to 114 for the AI.

 

[Koshling]

Figured out how to get the AI logs. If I took the game I mentioned above & starting logging from the point I was first to Sedentary Lifestyle, would the logs be of any value to you? FWIW, I looked at the log a couple of turns after I got to Sedentary Lifestyle, & noticed I had the highest science output at 124, as compared values ranging from about 50 to 114 for the AI.

It would at least tell us something about the AI state (what myths they built, that kind of thing). It's a bit late, but may at least contain clues so go ahead and post it please.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

It would at least tell us something about the AI state (what myths they built, that kind of thing). It's a bit late, but may at least contain clues so go ahead and post it please.

Okay, here are the files for the game I mentioned above. The first save is the turn after I finished Sedentary Lifestyle. I then played five turns with AI logging on, and attached the log and savegame file from that point.

One quick note - I could have gotten Sedentary Lifestyle a few turns earlier, but detoured to Earth Oven and Slash & Burn to be able to take Agriculture as the free tech.

Hope it helps.