AI tech(-trading?) on Deity

[Seraiel]

Seriosly. Is there any hidden mechanism, that AIs that are backwards get techs, probably gifted or for very low prices? I isolated Hatty completely because I want to attack her, then out of nothing, she gets 6 techs in 2 turns! Yes, she had a little Failgold from the Mids, but nowhere near enough to catch up all techs that were available by trade, without having a single tech to offer herself.

 

[SpK]

Not sure if a mechanic, but sometimes it seems a strong AI will take pity on a weaker one and gift them things. I have seen Catherine do it a lot, I *think* she is trying to improve relations and get them to swap religions.... since doing it just to mess with me is likely untrue. ...

 

[elmurcis]

Question would be from who she could get techs? Maybe she got 1 gift tech (common thing for backward human for sure) and next turn traded it for another 5 (with help from failgold?).... This is just big number she got... but if there were 2 AI who gift techs and need to trade just for 4 more... hmmm...

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't think the AIs' trading behaviour is affected by the difficulty setting


Diplo stance (glance) and tech trading screens would help.

 

[Pangaea]

A tech becomes cheaper the more that have it, similar to it being faster to research if many have it. That could be part of the explanation.

Sometimes you see this when selling techs to several AIs, and it's just on the borderline, meaning they don't give you all their gold. You sell e.g. Aesthetics to one AI, and now the second AI offers you less gold than he did previously.

Suppose AIs trade 1:1 with each other as well, making trades much cheaper for them than for us on Deity.

 

[Pangaea]

Also, you usually don't see all an AI's in the tech screen, so it's possible Hatty sat on a whole heap.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

A tech becomes cheaper the more that have it, similar to it being faster to research if many have it. That could be part of the explanation.



Suppose AIs trade 1:1 with each other as well, making trades much cheaper for them than for us on Deity.

Yes, the research cost and trade value decrease by 5% for each known team that knows the tech.

Also, failgold from the Pyramids is a valid reason for Hatshepsut to raise her science slider.
You're right she probably had some banked gold even before then.


I don't think AIs trade 1:1 with each other, although I don't know what the ratio is. I think they're quite generous with each other.
AIs trade 0,7:1 with the player, though (Deity?).

 

[Seraiel]

Here, this is the situation in detail with screens:

Hatty totally backwards, because I denied her all trades:



I traded Meditation to her for 40g, she got HBR for free from somewhere as it seems. Mids have gone this turn, no Failgold yet:



Shows that she got Construction. For what? From whom? I traded her CoL because she had 230 Failgold.



Again one turn later, she has all techs except Theology. She had no tech she could trade for the others and seems to have gotten them "for free" or for a maximum amount of 500 (750 - 230 for which I traded already, Epic speed) .



Diplomatic relations:

 

[Seraiel]

Also, failgold from the Pyramids is a valid reason for Hatshepsut to raise her science slider.

This does have nothing to do with this case. Hatty is a crap researcher and raising the science-slider can't get her 6 techs in 3 turns.

 

[Seraiel]

Also, you usually don't see all an AI's in the tech screen, so it's possible Hatty sat on a whole heap.

She couldn't have more than 500g, which is too little to get 6 techs of the size of Calendar or larger.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't think the AIs' trading behaviour is affected by the difficulty setting

Where would I have suggested that?

What I suspect is that there is some hidden kind of modifier we don't know yet, that lets AIs get techs that many AIs have for incredible prices, like let's say 50g or so.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

That's some serious catching up, indeed.


What I can see is that Hattie :
- trades Calendar to Liz for HBR (900 BC)
- self-researches Construction (850 BC)
- trades Construction to Brennus for Monarchy and Currency (850 BC)


Maybe some gold is traded on top of techs, too. Can't tell. Maybe she had some beakers into Monarchy/Currency, too.
Can't know for sure whether that was the exact sequence or not but it seems plausible to me.


@ Advantageous trades : yes, AIs don't need to trade 1:1. Pretty sure about that.


@ Deity factoring in : thread title

 

[Tatran]

I do remember a situation with Mansa Musa where he wanted less gold/gpt for a tech/resource than most other leaders in that game.
Also, the AI gold visible in the diplo screen is probably only 20-25% of what they really have in their coffers.

 

[Seraiel]

Also, the AI gold visible in the diplo screen is probably only 20-25% of what they really have in their coffers.

I know that, but then the question is, why is AI willing to trade more to another AI than to the human, and also how much more?

 

[Seraiel]

That's some serious catching up, indeed.


What I can see is that Hattie :
- trades Calendar to Liz for HBR (900 BC)
- self-researches Construction (850 BC)
- trades Construction to Brennus for Monarchy and Currency (850 BC)


Maybe some gold is traded on top of techs, too. Can't tell. Maybe she had some beakers into Monarchy/Currency, too.
Can't know for sure whether that was the exact sequence or not but it seems plausible to me.


@ Advantageous trades : yes, AIs don't need to trade 1:1. Pretty sure about that.


@ Deity factoring in : thread title

Hatty didn't have Calendar the turn before, so she must have researched that one. Then she got Construction for free though, and Construction for Monarchy and Currency? Seriously?

And regarding Deity: AIs tech-trading behaviour is definitely influenced by Deity, techs i. e. cost more for the player. I'm quite sure, that AIs also trade techs cheaper to the other AIs.

 

[Tatran]

Maybe she stole some techs?

 

[Seraiel]

Maybe she stole some techs?

Too early for that afaik.

 

[SpK]

partial beakers in multiple techs is all I can think of, or maybe a beg?

BiC - AI trades way less at lower levels, the slower tech rates mean less to trade. Cause of this relations often stay poor longer, so less partners working together too. Snowball, negative style.

 

[Seraiel]

Roosevelt just sold Banking to Gandhi. He did raise his slider slightly and Gandhi is not willing to trade as much Gold anymore (300g before buying it, 130g after it) . I don't know which part the AI is willing to trade of its Gold, but what's clear is, that there are either insane discounts (like AI paying only 10% of a tech in Gold) or the limit which the AI is willing to trade only counts for the player, but not for other AIs.

I'm really frustrated. I planned the trade for Nationalism perfectly, Roosevelt only had Banking for 1T, but he instantly sold, like always. Now Gandhi wants 1000g on top of Education .

 

[BornInCantaloup]

BiC - AI trades way less at lower levels, the slower tech rates mean less to trade. Cause of this relations often stay poor longer, so less partners working together too. Snowball, negative style.

That doesn't mean the AI trading behaviour is affected by the difficulty level.
AIs will trade more on Deity because they will have more frequent opportunities, however
The conditions under which they will trade is unchanged (to my knowledge) from Settler to Deity difficulty.
"They're not coded differently" is what I meant.



@ Seraiel :
You're looking to know the sort of discounts the AIs get when they trade with each other.
Can't help you, there. Did a quick search, found nothing.
The sequence of what happened with Hattie is pretty clear to me, though, and I don't find it outrageous. It's always easier to catch up than it is to tech ahead.
Imho, she just could 2-turn a tech like Monarchy. Are you sure she couldn't trade for Calendar ? What about her shrine, does she have it, yet ?


Finally, I don't know if AIs can gift techs to each other.
I would tend to think they don't but maybe they do