AI+ v13.1

[V. Soma]

part 4 of test II

with Firaxis TSL Europe map,
Combat and Stacking Overhaul mod
smoother mod immortal difficulty
standard speed
10 AI civs start on the map
I am Germany


It was an exciting Renaissance Era!

For some time it was peaceful, but with events:

Poland was in Dark Age, and so all her cities flipped to my Golden Age Germany…
Poland and France went out of the game…

Meanwhile Spain had war vs. Rome, battles in France area… and then…

Spain attacked me after he had a settling of peace with Trajan. Turn 215 (1520).


Spain: 2200, me: 1300 - but I had to bring forces to the front!
Philip had knights, knights, and conquistadors…
I had pike&shoots, muskets, crossbow
I thought it would be dangerous for me!

Spain quickly took Toulouse, and came for Paris:


but I defended Paris successfully.
And then in turn 221 Rome also DoW me…
With an army of 3350 and muskets, cavalry (!), bombards

This attack from Rome seemed to be big hit on me, as all my trades were dealt with Trajan…
No money, no luxuries… NOW I had to prove my strength - war on two big fronts!

Luckily I could make peace with Spain in ca. 3 turns…
And I got great peace deal - Philip gave me lots of money (500g + 120 gpt (!)) and luxuries,
but did not give me back the city of Toulouse (anyways, I’ll perhaps get it back later on…)

Now I faced Rome, turn 224…

It turned out that my newly upgraded infantry and field cannon corps could manage the situation: Rome though did capture Geneva - but it was all for the good, as it triggered the emergency to get it back, which I just did in 2 turns…
and then Rome asked for peace, gave me many luxuries and 120 gpt…

We had 9 turns left of the Renaissance… and entered Industrial Era in 1650 (turn 241)

I am in Golden Age, big civs are in Normal,smalls are in Dark Age

techs:

me: 44 (142/t)
Rome: 38 (195/t) !
Scotland: 36 (209/t) !
Spain: 33 (125/t)
others are way behind

culture:

me: 191/t
Rome: 154/t
others are 50-70

military:

me: 1800
Rome: 4000
Spain: 2000
Georgia: 1300
others are less than 1000

 

[V. Soma]

part 5 of test II

with Firaxis TSL Europe map,
Combat and Stacking Overhaul mod
smoother mod immortal difficulty
standard speed
10 AI civs on the map
I am Germany


Industrial Age was quiet… Spain vs Rome wars happened, without much result.

Moder Era started in turn 301, AD 1860

techs:

me: 55 (255/t)
Scotland: 54 (266/t)
Rome: 48 (480/t) (!)
Spain: 38 (158/t)


culture:

me: 376/t
Rome: 393/t
others are below 100

military:

me: 2700
Rome: 5500
Spain: 2100
others are 1500 or less

EDIT: minimap at turn 301 - you can see how big Rome is... (and may be even bigger)

 

[Scramble]

Hi, I am having an issue I was hoping you could help me resolve. I do primarily multiplayer with my brother and we have been desync-ing every turn or two beginning within the first 20 turns of the game. We have been disabling individual mods to isolate the issue and found that AI+ is the one causing the problem. We are pretty dissapointed because we have been anxiously awaiting the R&F update of AI+. Everything worked great before the expansion was released, but we haven't been able to get a game going since, as a result of this.
Is this a problem that anyone else has been experiencing?
Is there anything we can do to fix it?
Can I post any logs or reports that may help you fix the problem in a future update?
Is there nothing you can do about it?
Is there another AI mod that would fill the gap until this mod works for us?

Thanks a ton!

 

[Question]

Is anyone else having issues with the AI being broken by 12.0?

The AI doesnt seem to upgrade units and spams swordsmen and other low tech units even though they have industrial era techs.

 

[Thibaulthc]

@Question : in my current game with ai+ (demi god) and ai+, all the civs upgrzde corrrectl but one: Rome, who's on an isolated island , has loads of warriors in the renaissance era. Legions don't require iron.
Maybe he just doesn't feel the necessity to defend himself since he's isolated ?
He also has only 2 or 3 cities while there is still sime room on his big island, between some cs

Still lot of unwalled cities and cs

 

[Question]

@Question : in my current game with ai+ (demi god) and ai+, all the civs upgrzde corrrectl but one: Rome, who's on an isolated island , has loads of warriors in the renaissance era. Legions don't require iron.
Maybe he just doesn't feel the necessity to defend himself since he's isolated ?
He also has only 2 or 3 cities while there is still sime room on his big island, between some cs

Still lot of unwalled cities and cs

I was playing on prince and every AI in that game was buggy and not upgrading till they were forced to via obsolete techs, see this save : http://www.mediafire.com/file/hp5m5e1lp95jkn5/b.Civ6Save

 

[V. Soma]

test II

with Firaxis TSL Europe map,
Combat and Stacking Overhaul mod
smoother mod immortal difficulty
standard speed
10 AI civs on the map
I am Germany

in turn 321 I see that AI Rome got ahead of me in tech: 60 vs my 59, and he has 668/t over my 400/t sci...
It will be a real race for space... though Rome has not yet built a spaceport, and I have two and will begin Moon landing project in 5 turns...

Military: me: 3150, Rome: 6300 (exactly 2x mine)

here is the map:

 

[Morgawr]

Hey @Siesta Guru , I used to play with AI+ up until some of the last few patches and now planning to get back on it, having seen the positive feedback. Every time the devs release a patch, I know it's a lot of work for you to analyze and try to understand what the devs changed and how it impacts changes you had previously made and tweak your previous changes. How confident are you with that process?

As an example, I play religious game a lot and I know in the Fall patch they made it "easier" for players to get a religion, that not every single AI would go for a religion. (1/3, 1/3, 1/3 preferences thing) But I saw back in version 7 you had done:

Version 7:
- Split faith and great prophet desires in three categories. Having a religion, being able to get a religion, and not being able to get a religion. The desire for it while in a religion is comparable to the base game, while the desire without a religion is significantly lower.
- Additionally altered faith desires on a per-leader basis

So my Q is, after the devs made that change to religious preference, did you have to go back and undo or tweak that change from version 7? If not, do you know whether something like this would clash or complement the changes?

 

[V. Soma]

test II

the endgame was a bit anticlimactic...

I easily won the space-race in ca. turn 350, Rome got near Moon-landing... while Trajan had 1070/t sci (!) at the end and far more techs completed...
I don't really know what Rome was up to: Trajan conquered some land of lesser civs, did some space race - but all lazily somewhat.

Oh, I realize that Rome probably did not have aluminium... that slowed down space race for Trajan...

Rome had 9500 military (me: ca. 4200).
Scotland also begun Space Race, worked on the first phase...

 

[V. Soma]

Siesta, I see your posts in this thread.

If I can do some specific testing in your work on this AI+ mod now, let me know...
I don't have too much time, but 2-3 hrs per day can be...

 

[Siesta Guru]

Hey everyone, thank you so much for all your detailed feedback! Especially the detailed game description from you @V. Soma For some reason I hadn't gotten any alerts so thought no one was posting here, hence my absence.


So first thing first. Thanks to @Gedemon, a massive opening has now been found to actually use lua programming to be able to control a significant part of AI troop movements.
This is a big deal because previously I was forced to just use xml based hacks, which give awful results. Now I should be able to have in depth control over where, when, and how players settle, which players attack what cities with what units, etc. (micro control might still be impossible though)
I'm working hard on that now. It's going to take a lot of time because I have to start from zero and essentially override 30% of Civs AI code using somewhat hacky tools, but initial progress is decent.
Thanks to this, the next version should be the biggest improvements by a large margin.

1 more thing I noticed, 150 turns in most AI civs were broke AF... could be because they were told to ignore money districts for something else?

Will keep an eye out for this, thanks! Civs do produce more stuff/units here, so they need to manage more maintenance.

Can't create a game if both AI+ and Smoother Difficulty are activated. Are they incompatible now?

They shouldn't be, could you share the contents of your modding.log file under my games/civ6/logs ?

Started a game on Prince with AI+ - all DLCs and R&F activated, latest version of the mod off Steam. Standard size, standard speed, 9 civs and 11 city-states on a Fractal. Everything seemed to go remarkably well for the AI until Korea started hoarding settlers within their borders, not moving an inch. This has been going on for at least 10 turns now. This, uh.. Probably shouldn't be happening?

Oh dear.. That's not very smart.. It also happens in some of my test games so it's not just you, this behavior should be gone in the next lua patch

My final observation, I think some adjustment need to be done on preferences. Right now the Unit count might be a little to high generally to early to the detriment of base development. Going back to vanilla, maybe with some tweaks on unit production.

Thanks for the feedback, I think it aligns with what some other people are saying, and I should probably increase desire to get science and gold buildings over units.

Is anyone else having issues with the AI being broken by 12.0?

The AI doesnt seem to upgrade units and spams swordsmen and other low tech units even though they have industrial era techs.

This is not something I have direct control over right now (I might actually after the lua changes), it's probably a side effect of more gold being used on maintenance. Do you happen to have any balance mods changing gold in some way?

Hey @Siesta Guru , I used to play with AI+ up until some of the last few patches and now planning to get back on it, having seen the positive feedback. Every time the devs release a patch, I know it's a lot of work for you to analyze and try to understand what the devs changed and how it impacts changes you had previously made and tweak your previous changes. How confident are you with that process?

As an example, I play religious game a lot and I know in the Fall patch they made it "easier" for players to get a religion, that not every single AI would go for a religion. (1/3, 1/3, 1/3 preferences thing) But I saw back in version 7 you had done:

Version 7:
- Split faith and great prophet desires in three categories. Having a religion, being able to get a religion, and not being able to get a religion. The desire for it while in a religion is comparable to the base game, while the desire without a religion is significantly lower.
- Additionally altered faith desires on a per-leader basis

So my Q is, after the devs made that change to religious preference, did you have to go back and undo or tweak that change from version 7? If not, do you know whether something like this would clash or complement the changes?

It depends on their change. In this case I could see what they did on xml side, so made sure it wouldn't conflict. The change they did was actually rather similar to what I had done and it ended up not mattering too much. They could've done some changes on their code side too, but I doubt it, because this is reasonably effective enough if done on xml side anyway.
If I'm not sure, I usually just do a bunch of testing

test II

the endgame was a bit anticlimactic...

I easily won the space-race in ca. turn 350, Rome got near Moon-landing... while Trajan had 1070/t sci (!) at the end and far more techs completed...
I don't really know what Rome was up to: Trajan conquered some land of lesser civs, did some space race - but all lazily somewhat.

Oh, I realize that Rome probably did not have aluminium... that slowed down space race for Trajan...

Rome had 9500 military (me: ca. 4200).
Scotland also begun Space Race, worked on the first phase...

Thanks a ton for the detailed descriptions. Glad to see rome was at least looking dangerous, even if it turned out he was a bit of an uncivilized brute.
Based on your games, it seems one of the main things that needs changing is that they really need some more desire to get science. I'll try working that into the next version.

Siesta, I see your posts in this thread.

If I can do some specific testing in your work on this AI+ mod now, let me know...
I don't have too much time, but 2-3 hrs per day can be...

Thanks for the offer Right now my lua based version is so obviously broken that there's no real point in testing on that version (as in: right now all units endlessly move rightwards), nor really on the military/settling side of things on the current version since it's all going to be overhauled anyway. I imagine it's going to take at least a few weeks before the lua based mod is advanced enough to be able to use community testing.

Currently, feedback wise, what is most useful is feedback on the economic and individualization side of things, since I don't think I can reasonably touch these with lua. Mostly: are civs picking the right balance between growth/production/science/culture/growth and how does this look for individual civilizations.
For example, the fact Robert was a science powerhouse in your game should be partially because I have set Robert to try to be science focused. Rome is focussed on military, expansion, production and trade routes; which seems to be reflected in how they were able to get both a massive empire and many units.
For other civs it was a bit harder to tell for me based on your description whether they were doing the right thing. Was Georgia for example just kind of sticking to her corner doing religion? And do you know what pericles attempted to do?




In a completely unrelated note. Can anyone confirm whether the minor bonuses of governments are actually functioning? It seems at least the communism minor bonus is not doing anything whatsoever for me, but it's harder to tell for some of the others.

 

[V. Soma]

to get alerts: perhaps you have to click "watch thread" button...? (it sounds stupid, but maybe)

 

[Siesta Guru]

It's watched already, no idea why I didn't get any until oedali mentioned my name :/

 

[Morgawr]

It's been happening to me too lately in fact, despite watching threads not getting alerts.

 

[Thibaulthc]

The main problem is indeed AI focusing way too much on units and thus becoming way behind in science/culture especially.
In my current game, AI has huge armies but is around 15 techs behind. I completed all the techs from Atomic era while the World is still in Industrial Age.
I'm popping literraly every GS because they constructed almost no Campus at all. There is ZERO Great Works in the World.

AI is doing good in battles, but I noticed several time very strange behavior in some civs or CS: spamming ONE type of unit on his whole territory and not moving one single unit, ever.

Spoiler example with a CS :

Rome did the same with much more catapults, never moved or upgraded them, never got out of his island

 

[Question]

@Siesta Guru : Nope, i dont have any mods that touch gold or maintenance. Did you take a look at the save i uploaded in the previous page? Spain very clearly is behind because it is sitting on a massive fleet of quadriremes and the maintenace is killing him. Hes also been at war with another AI for 200+ turns but isnt using any of his units to do anything.

I started another game without the AI + mod and the AI is actually capable of advancing and upgrading his units...im fighting Russia now and hes using musketmen armies and upgrading them to infantry armies.

 

[Siesta Guru]

@Question
The save doesn't work for me, but I have a pretty good idea what you're probably seeing.These issues should hopefully be resolved in the next version when I should be able to actually make them use their units.
Right now it's a bit of a frustrating problem because it stems from the AI actually getting more hammers in AI+ due to several changes (mainly earlier/more cities and better improvements). It's not that they they don't build districts or buildings, but that they have spare production left after that and end up using it all on units. Humans in that situation go and attack people, pick better policies, build more commercial districts, use trade routes for gold or go and delete some units, but the AI's too dumb for these.

 

[Question]

In my latest game, im playing on abudant/legendary and the AI is more than capable of using all their hammers...they are building wonders, spamming cities and districts everywhere...

 

[Morgawr]

Hey @Siesta Guru I started a game with AI+. Here are my observations from first ~120 turns. I am glad to have played 7 games before with vanilla R&F (thru ~ turn 100-200) so I have a good base for comparison.

Mods enabled: AI+, Smoother Difficulty, CS have Walls, settlers retreat
Settings: Deity, +2 additional AI, rest all standard

- HUGE improvement from vanilla visible immediately. KUDOS and THANK YOU.
- more units built, a lot more wars. I mean A LOT MORE.
- 2 capitals already captured, something I had not seen in my previous vanilla games ever.
- civs look like they are playing to their flavor. Genghis, Chandra constantly warring.
- Pound maker took off on other continent. His score is TWICE the runner up and 4x the lowest. In my vanilla games scores were always very similarly lined up, never this much contrast.
- Poundmaker already converted 4 to his religion. Not sure if he did this deliberately or lucky coz he is on another continent with no competing religions.

Interesting things I noticed:
- AI attitude in beginning is different. They are more neutral for a long time - as they should be - until you go toward or against their agenda. This was a big contrast to my vanilla R&F games where they usually became friendly (or in rare cases hostile) in first 5 turns. Not sure if this is related to AI+ or pure coincidence but I like it.
- Poland declared war on two civs at once, on same turn in classical era. I had never seen this before. I am 100% sure it was not due to alliance coz I checked and she wasn't allied with anyone. Why would she wanna declare war on two targets at once? Seemed strange and suboptomal.

Areas for improvement :
- Almost all warring civs went broke- no gold income, treasury empty. They are not bouncing back either. Some changes are definitely needed to have them focus on gold or at least be aware of maintenance costs.
- (Not related to AI+) - I see civs settling where they have -20 loyalty from get go, they don't assign a governor, city flips. Saw this in vanilla too. Are you able to see in settling behavior code whether AI takes this into account? One would assume so but they don't always.
- (Not related to AI+) Finally, I was curious whether you have any insight into this: if a civ has founded a religion, are they more likely to go for RV? I play RV mainly and I am sensing this is not the case, which makes RV too easy for the human. RV is already limited to 5 contenders. If 1 is found by human, and only 1 of the other 4 AI pursue, this leaves little competition. I was wondering if there's a way to make the AI pursue RV more aggressively vs other VC if they founded a religion.

I will keep sharing more as I play on. Keep up the good work!

 

[Siesta Guru]

Hey @Siesta Guru
- HUGE improvement from vanilla visible immediately. KUDOS and THANK YOU.

Glad to hear that

- AI attitude in beginning is different. They are more neutral for a long time - as they should be - until you go toward or against their agenda. This was a big contrast to my vanilla R&F games where they usually became friendly (or in rare cases hostile) in first 5 turns. Not sure if this is related to AI+ or pure coincidence but I like it.

I think it's probably a coincidence, I don't really touch the relationship system much.

- Poland declared war on two civs at once, on same turn in classical era. I had never seen this before. I am 100% sure it was not due to alliance coz I checked and she wasn't allied with anyone. Why would she wanna declare war on two targets at once? Seemed strange and suboptomal.

Hmm, sometimes I see this too, but thought it was some kind of UI bug where it was actually a joint war against somewhere, perhaps it might not be. I'll try to figure out what's really going on

- Almost all warring civs went broke- no gold income, treasury empty. They are not bouncing back either. Some changes are definitely needed to have them focus on gold or at least be aware of maintenance costs.

Seems to be a common complaint. I'll at least increase commercial district desire in the next patch

- (Not related to AI+) - I see civs settling where they have -20 loyalty from get go, they don't assign a governor, city flips. Saw this in vanilla too. Are you able to see in settling behavior code whether AI takes this into account? One would assume so but they don't always.

It seems they do take it into account because there's an exposed XML variable for it, but strangely changing it doesn't seem to do much. This should hopefully be gone in the next lua based patch.

- (Not related to AI+) Finally, I was curious whether you have any insight into this: if a civ has founded a religion, are they more likely to go for RV? I play RV mainly and I am sensing this is not the case, which makes RV too easy for the human. RV is already limited to 5 contenders. If 1 is found by human, and only 1 of the other 4 AI pursue, this leaves little competition. I was wondering if there's a way to make the AI pursue RV more aggressively vs other VC if they founded a religion.

It's actually related to AI+, because in vanilla they don't really, while in AI+ they do, I have something in place that boosts faith desire for those with a religion. Might have to buff it though if it's not noticeable enough to even offer you a RV challenge on deity.
Just to give me some idea how high I should put it, are you finding that in AI+ the following leaders do adequately try to engage with the RV?: Gandhi, Hardrada, Tomyris, Philip, Jayavarman, Jadwiga, Montezuma, Chandragupta, Tamar, Gitarja, Hojo.
I've got these marked as religious civs