Air Defence

[DJ_Izumi]

I'm a little confused about air defense in C3C so I'm hopeing someone can help me out.

As we all know, Stealth Aircraft are difficult to stop, you can only hope to get lucky. If I build a SAM site in a city, place a mobile sam and an intercepting fighter in the city, will my odds of stopping an enemy aircraft be multiplied by 3, or will only one of the units/improvements actually get it's chance to role the die to shoot at the stealth planes?

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I think your odds improve the more units you have in the city. I would skip the SAM battery, until you need them for SDI. Keep everything mobile. Make sure you build plenty of flak/SAMs and interceptor planes. When war starts mass these in the cities the AI bombs. 10 units on anti-air duty in each besieged city should nail a lot of bombers.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by DJ_Izumi
I'm a little confused about air defense in C3C so I'm hopeing someone can help me out.

As we all know, Stealth Aircraft are difficult to stop, you can only hope to get lucky. If I build a SAM site in a city, place a mobile sam and an intercepting fighter in the city, will my odds of stopping an enemy aircraft be multiplied by 3, or will only one of the units/improvements actually get it's chance to role the die to shoot at the stealth planes?

Good question! I know that in Civ 3 pre-C3C, stacking tons of fighters on air superiority in a city didn't increase the odds of intercepting individual enemy bombing runs (still an X% chance), but that each AS unit got a chance to intercept a bomber -- in other words, a stack of ten bombers coming at a city with ten fighters on AS would yield ten possible chances at interception, but not increase the odds of the first bombing run being intercepted.

I have no idea how te rpesence of differnt types of AS units effects the chances -- figthers on AS, the city improvement (SAM site), and AS units like mobile SAMs or flak. I also have no idea how the new unit AS values work -- does an anti-air value of 1 (flak, destroyer) take into account the attacking air unit's defense value, or is the anti-air value simply an interception chance, with an interception resulting in an attacker shot down? And what are the chances of interception based on anti-air values of 1, 2, 3, etc.?

From gameplay, it seems that units with an anti-air value either intercept or don't -- interception means the attacker is shot down (I've never seen a flak unit fire on a plane without shooting the plane down). So what are the interception chances of a unit with anit-air value of 1? Or 2? And does an attacker's defense have any bearing on interception, or is interception chance a fixed value matched against anti-air value?

Anyone done any tests? Enquiring minds want to know .

 

[Hygro]

Originally posted by Catt
Good question! I know that in Civ 3 pre-C3C, stacking tons of fighters on air superiority in a city didn't increase the odds of intercepting individual enemy bombing runs (still an X% chance), but that each AS unit got a chance to intercept a bomber -- in other words, a stack of ten bombers coming at a city with ten fighters on AS would yield ten possible chances at interception, but not increase the odds of the first bombing run being intercepted.

After playing multiplayer against my brother in ptw, I am inclined to believe you are wrong. He had about 12 f-15s in his capitol while I had about 14 stealth bombers. I thought this was gonna be easy pickings. Turned out I lost the whole 14 just after about 3 turns of bombing runs.

 

[Hygro]

DP

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Hygro


After playing multiplayer against my brother in ptw, I am inclined to believe you are wrong. He had about 12 f-15s in his capitol while I had about 14 stealth bombers. I thought this was gonna be easy pickings. Turned out I lost the whole 14 just after about 3 turns of bombing runs.

Could it have been an incredible RNG streak (and the presence of a SAM, given you were up to stealth)? Both cracker and I did some independent testing with regard to AS and how it worked -- the search function is disabled else I would link to the test results, but they seemed pretty clear that mulitple AS defenders increased the number of potentialinterceptions but not an increased interception chance.

 

[Catt]

I just set up a very quick test using C3C's editor and the number of defending AS units most certainly does have an effect on interception chances! (just as you experienced with your PBEM with your brother). Strange, because I am fairly confident that the earlier tests in Civ vanilla were as I described them.

In setting up and running the test, I also noticed an interesting change to the stealth bomber. In Civ vanilla and PTW, stealth planes had 0 A/D and therefore were either able to complete a bombing run, or were intercepted and shot down -- they never had a chance to survive an interception; this also meant that stealth planes could be captured (instead of destroyed). With C3C the stealth bomber and fighter have a defense value (5 and 6, respectively) meaning they can survive an interception (as they did in my quick tests). Also, the stealth fighter has an attack value of 8, but not the interception ability -- how would the attack value ever be used?

Has interception changed from Civ vanilla to PTW or is my memory failing? Interception seems to clearly to have changed with C3C since stealth planes now have defense values. How else has interception changed (anti-air abilities)?

 

[Roland Johansen]

I did a small test in Civ3 PTW 1.27f (30 or 40 bombing runs by stealth bombers during a few turns against an AI city defended by 20 jet figters). A very large percentage got shot down. Something like 80-90% or so. This convinced me that large numbers of defending fighters on air superiority have a very large chance to shoot down bombers on a bombing run. The number of bombing runs is a bit small to say anything about the formula used. Maybe each defending fighter gets a chance to shoot down the bomber. Maybe each defending fighter that hasn't tried to intercept a bomber during that turn gets a chance to shoot down the bomber.
I also noted that after every defending fighter got its chance to shoot down a bomber the interceptions stop. But this is very well known.

I also remember reading a thread that said something like the number of fighters don't matter for the interception chances. I think it got changed in one of the patches or in PTW.

Catt, I don't own C3C yet. Would you mind testing how a large stack of units with the anti air ability fare against multiple bombing runs (of normal or stealth bombers)? Not a big test, just a small one to see if a large stack has a better chance to shoot down the bombers. I'm just curious...

 

[DJ_Izumi]

I guess it's true then, 10 fighters results in 10 chances to stop a stealth airplane, and 10 times the chance of stopping the bomber.

I wonder if it's the same for mobile SAM sites. Give me a moment, I'll whip up a little test scenario to find out.

 

[DJ_Izumi]

10 Stealth Bombers Vs 10 Mobile SAM sites (C3C 1.00)

4 sam missiles were fired, and 4 stealth bombers were shot down, also 2 SAM sites were destroyed in the bombing (No other units were in the city)

Now if someone could just tell me why flak guns seem to fire missiles at the planes... :|

 

[pax]

Here's an interesting question: How do you take down a city defended by fighters on air superiority? I ran into this playing the WWII Pacific scenario, as Japan typically had 4 or 5 fighters defending the home islands. The strategy I came up with was to send in fighters on bombing runs first. But I guess I should send in the units with the best defense values first, hoping that they can take out the air superiority fights. Any other ideas about how to take down air superiority fighters? Maybe we need a new air mission: Counter-superiority.

Of course, once you're done with the fighters, you have to take out the flak or the SAMs. Anyone survived an attack from flak or a SAM? I would think it should happen about half the time with flak (though injured) and maybe 10-20% of the time with SAMs (maybe lower).

 

[DJ_Izumi]

The only real way to get by heavy air defences is just like they did in the real war... More bombers. Lots and lots and lots of bombers.

 

[Gilead]

Originally posted by DJ_Izumi
The only real way to get by heavy air defences is just like they did in the real war... More bombers. Lots and lots and lots of bombers.

I disagree, C3C has made it so that the Bomber is not the end all be all of offense. It used to be that first you sent in 15 Bombers and then you took over the city with just a few tanks, now you loose 80% of your Bombers if the city is well fortified (rough estimate). The "ONLY WAY" is not to build more bombers, but to return to conventional tactics and make use of artillery, take out the SAM's, and balance a land and air assault... The most powerful use of bombers now is in destroying terrain and therefore population (starvation) and production. They also make good defense if the uncoming assault forgot to bring with it Mobile SAMs.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Roland Johansen
Catt, I don't own C3C yet. Would you mind testing how a large stack of units with the anti air ability fare against multiple bombing runs (of normal or stealth bombers)? Not a big test, just a small one to see if a large stack has a better chance to shoot down the bombers. I'm just curious...

I will try to do so soon, but expect to have only a little free time over the next few days. I should be able to at least just stack AA units to see whether interception chances seem to be improved compared to lone AAs (don't think I'll have the time to test different AA values and different air unit values).

 

[DJ_Izumi]

Originally posted by Gilead


I disagree, C3C has made it so that the Bomber is not the end all be all of offense. It used to be that first you sent in 15 Bombers and then you took over the city with just a few tanks, now you loose 80% of your Bombers if the city is well fortified (rough estimate).

I'm sorry, I ment the only way to get the bombers to succeed is to use more of them, to take an alternate tactic isn't letting the bombers win. If you're trashing a city to the point that artillery can can hit the mobile sams or flaks then bombers won't be to usefull.

I will agree that Bombers have become exelent for destroying terrian improvments, also to use as ground support and destroying enemy units. I've often found myself launching air strikes to level radar towers, key roads, and defensive positions.

 

[phizuol]

Originally posted by pax
Here's an interesting question: How do you take down a city defended by fighters on air superiority? I ran into this playing the WWII Pacific scenario, as Japan typically had 4 or 5 fighters defending the home islands. The strategy I came up with was to send in fighters on bombing runs first. But I guess I should send in the units with the best defense values first, hoping that they can take out the air superiority fights. Any other ideas about how to take down air superiority fighters? Maybe we need a new air mission: Counter-superiority.

Of course, once you're done with the fighters, you have to take out the flak or the SAMs. Anyone survived an attack from flak or a SAM? I would think it should happen about half the time with flak (though injured) and maybe 10-20% of the time with SAMs (maybe lower).

Looking at the stats I believe fighters are 4 attack, 2 defense while bombers are 0 attack, 2 defense (did this change in C3C?) So it looks like a fighter and a bomber have the same chance (ie, defense) to survive an intercept. Sending a jet fighter 8/4 against regular fighters would be an even matchup. One thing I did notice in C3C is now air bombardment will destroy planes/ships before regular units. So if you know what city the fighters are based in you can try to destroy the fighters with your bombs. I used to send fighters in first to try to lure out the enemy fighters, but now that I'm looking it seems its no more effective than just sending a bomber.

 

[Gilead]

Originally posted by DJ_Izumi


I'm sorry, I ment the only way to get the bombers to succeed is to use more of them, to take an alternate tactic isn't letting the bombers win. If you're trashing a city to the point that artillery can can hit the mobile sams or flaks then bombers won't be to usefull.

My mistake. I would absolutely agree with you that if you're simply trying to bomb an out of range (for ground units) city, all you can do is send more bombers

I Have a question to add: When will a bomber completly destroy a unit? It seems I have bombed citys and destroyed all population (except 1), all improvements, and brought each unit down to a HP of 1 without destroying any units?

 

[DJ_Izumi]

Only in C3C could aircraft destroy enemy units rather then just hurt them, it's harder to do so in a city, but outside of the cities it's much easier, especially with a stealth bomber. But sometimes the city will have so much aimed at it that the units will begin to die. You'll also notice that during bombing runs agianst cities that you're hitting planes and ships that are 'hiding' in the city. Kinda neat to destroy an enemy airforce while it's still on the ground. Bwa.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Originally posted by Catt


I will try to do so soon, but expect to have only a little free time over the next few days. I should be able to at least just stack AA units to see whether interception chances seem to be improved compared to lone AAs (don't think I'll have the time to test different AA values and different air unit values).

Thanks. I appreciate it. Just a small test would suffice. I'm just curious if it's the same as with multiple fighters on air superiority (chances of interception increase with the number of AA-units).
It probably is the same if the small test of DJ_Izumi (thank you DJ_Uzumi) is a good indication. 4 out of 10 shot down sounds like a high percentage, but I don't know anything about the succesrate of lone SAM Sites against stealth bombers, so I'm not sure.