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Air-Sea Renovation Workshop

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Tomorrow's Dawn, Oct 27, 2013.

  1. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I'm copypasta'ing my ideas from the Suggestions & Requests thread so they don't get lost and also because I have fewer ideas about air combat redesign.
    This thread will be used for the purpose of improving naval combat and the role of air units.
    Feel free to contribute and offer any input you may have.

    TAGS:
    (L): Light-class; meant to overwhelm in large numbers; sea-based equivalent of siege. Later fulfills more of a skirmisher role
    and is meant to comprise the navy of lesser civs without access to Oil or Coal, so they have multiple functionalities but are outclassed in each area as a result.
    (T): Transport-class; self-explanatory
    (BB): Bread & Butter; meant to form the core of your forces
    (F): Flagship; muscle ships, think of them as cav-equivalents or CR melee units on land. Later flagships adopt a collateral damage role or have some other tricks.
    These are your most important ships.
    (S): Support-role; bag of tricks

    MAN TIER
    -Sailing unlocks Man Tier units.

    Spoiler :

    Lembos
    (L) 2 STR, 3 MOV, 25 Hammers.
    -Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%).
    -50% withdrawal chance.
    -Cannot sink ships.

    Galley (T) 1 STR, 2 MOV, 35 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 2
    -Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.

    Trireme (BB) 3 STR, 2 MOV, 40 Hammers.
    -May blocklade.
    -May bombard (6%).
    -Can inflict flanking damage on Galleys upon sinking a unit.
    +50% vs. Lembos & Galley.


    MED TIER
    -All Med Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
    -Machinery unlocks Med Tier ships.

    Spoiler :
    Monoxyla (L) 3 STR, 3 MOV, 30 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 1
    -Melee units gain temporary Amphibious promotion when attacking from this unit.
    -Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker/Slave onboard.
    -70% withdrawal chance.

    Chelandion (T) 2 STR, 3 MOV, 40 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 3
    -Starts with Drill I.
    -Cavalry units gain temporary Amphibious promotion when attacking from this unit.
    -Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker/Slave onboard.

    Dromon (BB) 4 STR, 2 MOV, 45 Hammers.
    -May bombard (6%).
    -Can inflict collateral damage (max 40%).
    +25% bonus vs. Monoxyla and Chelandion on attack.

    Koumbaria
    (F) 6 STR, 2 MOV, 55 Hammers.
    -Can fortify.


    SAIL TIER
    -All Sail Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
    -All Sail Tier units may enter ocean.
    -All Sail Tier units except Caravel & Privateer require Iron.
    -Optics unlock Caravel.
    -Sail Tier units now unlock at Economics instead of Astronomy.

    Spoiler :
    Caravel (S) 4 STR, 5 MOV, 45 Hammers
    -Cargo Space: 1
    -Can only carry Scouts/Explorers/GPs.
    -May pass through rival territory.
    -No maintenance upkeep.

    Galleon (T) 5 STR, 4 MOV, 55 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 3.
    -Gain an extra MOV point for each Worker or Slave onboard.

    Frigate (BB) 7 STR, 4 MOV, 60 Hammers.
    -May blockade.
    -May bombard (8%).
    -Can inflict flanking damage on Galleons upon sinking a unit.

    Ship of the Line (F) 8 STR, 4 MOV, 75 Hammers.
    -May blockade.
    -May bombard (8%).
    -Priority targeting of Frigates in an enemy stack.
    +50% vs. Frigates & Galleons.

    Privateer (L) 5 STR, 5 MOV, 60 Hammers,
    -May blockade.
    -Hidden nationality.
    -Inflicts collateral damage (max 40%).


    PRE-MOD TIER
    -All Pre-Mod Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
    -All Pre-Mod Tier units may enter ocean.
    -All Pre-Mod Tier units except for Gunboat and Depth Charge require Coal.
    -Steam Power unlocks Gunboat, Cruiser & Lander.
    -Steel unlocks Dreadnought, U-Boat & Depth Charge.

    Spoiler :
    Gunboat (L) 7 STR, 5 MOV, 60 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 1
    -Can bombard (6%)
    -50% withdrawal chance.

    Cruiser (BB) 8 STR, 5 MOV, 80 Hammers.
    -Can detect invisible units.
    -Can blockade.
    -Can bombard (8%)
    -Can intercept aircraft (25%)
    +25% bonus vs. Air Units.
    +25% bonus vs. U-Boat & Lander.
    +50% bonus vs. Gunboat on attack.

    Lander (T) 6 STR, 6 MOV, 70 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 4

    U-Boat (S) 7 STR, 6 MOV, 80 Hammers.
    -May pass through rival territory.
    -Invisible.
    -Can detect invisible units.
    -Immune to collateral damage.
    -Priority targeting Dreadnought.
    -50% to generate a Depth Charge on kill.
    -50% withdrawal chance.
    +50% bonus vs. Lander & Dreadnought on attack.

    Dreadnought (F) 11 STR, 5 MOV, 100 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 2
    -Can blockade.
    -Can bombard (12%)
    -Can inflict collateral damage (max 60%)
    -Enables amphibious attacks for Bombard, Cannon & Artillery.
    +20% bonus vs. Air Units.
    +50% bonus vs. Cruiser.

    Depth Charge (S) 5 STR, 5 MOV, 30 Hammers.
    -Can only defend.
    -Priority defender.
    -Depth Charge is automatically destroyed after one round of battle.
    -Inflicts collateral damage to the attacking stack (max 30%).


    MODERN TIER
    -All Modern Tier units gain a +50% bonus vs. all ships of a preceding tier class.
    -All Modern Tier units may enter ocean.
    -All Modern Tier units except Corvette & Dolphin Soldier require Oil.
    -Dolphin Soldier requires Whale.
    -Modern Tier units unlock at Industrialism.

    Spoiler :
    Corvette (L) 10 STR, 6 MOV, 80 Hammers.
    -Can bombard (8%)
    -Cargo Space: 2
    -70% withdrawal chance.

    Modern Lander
    (T) 8 STR, 7 MOV, 100 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 4
    -Can intercept aircraft (25%)

    Destroyer
    (BB) 12 STR, 6 MOV, 120 Hammers.
    -Can blockade.
    -Can bombard (12%).
    -Can detect invisible units.
    -Can intercept aircraft (35%)
    +25% bonus vs. Air Units.
    +50% bonus vs. Submarine.
    +50% bonus vs. Corvette on attack.

    Submarine (S) 12 STR, 7 MOV, 115 Hammers.
    -May pass through rival territory.
    -Cargo Space: 2
    -Can only carry Guided Missile, Tactical Nuke & GPs.
    -Invisible.
    -Can detect invisible units.
    -Immune to collateral damage.
    -Priority targeting Carrier.
    -Comes with one free Guided Missile.
    +50% bonus vs. Carrier.

    Carrier (F) 15 STR, 6 MOV, 140 Hammers.
    -Cargo Space: 4
    -Can blockade.
    -Can only carry Fighters & Jet Fighters.
    -Heal air units 10% damage/turn.
    -Inflicts collateral damage (max 75%)
    +1 STR for each Fighter onboard.
    +2 STR for each Jet Fighter onboard.
    +1 additional STR for each air unit attached with a Great General.

    Dolphin Soldier (S) 5 STR, 7 MOV, 95 Hammers.
    -Free Medic I promotion.
    -Can detect invisible units.
    -Immune to collateral damage.
    -Can spend a turn creating a Depth Charge for 40 Gold.


    Upgrade Path:

    (Light tree)
    Lembos -> Monoxyla -> Privateer -> Gunboat -> Corvette

    (Transport tree)
    Galley -> Chelandion -> Galleon -> Lander -> Modern Lander

    (Bread & Butter tree)
    Trireme -> Dromon -> Frigate -> Cruiser -> Destroyer

    (Flagship tree)
    Koumbaria -> Ship of the Line -> Dreadnought -> Carrier

    (Support trees)
    Caravel -> Cruiser (becomes Bread & Butter)
    U-Boat -> Submarine
    Depth Charge does not upgrade.
    Dolphin Soldier does not upgrade.

    Building Changes:
    Harbor: +1 Food from water tiles. +3 EXP to all naval units built in this city.
    Lighthouse: +1 Commerce from water tiles. Heal naval units extra 10%
    damage/turn

    New Civic:
    Naval Doctrine - Available at Astronomy.
    High Upkeep
    +4XP to all newly built naval units.
    +1 MOV for all naval units
    All ships may pass through rival territory without OB.
    Able to blockade even when not at war.

    Frogmen a potential replacement if people don't like Dolphins.

    I do have a few ideas for Air Units though, and they are:
    1. Air units gain XP from combat like any other unit, not just from interception.
    2. +50% bonus vs. Land units for all Air units and lowered STR across the board for air units to keep in line with Naval units. Surface to Air defenses are realistically iffy.
     
  2. citis

    citis Deity

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    Make bombers able only to bomb and fighters able only to defend. Add a scouting airship (60% evading interception chance) able only to scout. Add a paratrouping airship (enables paratrouping from the tile (city/fort) it is).

    If you want you can add trucks and airships. They can carry units, small strength, but large movement.
     
  3. SheaferDaDawg

    SheaferDaDawg Intelligent Canine

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    Why would you want that? Gameplay wise, it would result in insane bomber losses, and it doesn't make much sense irl either. Bombers have rarely attacked cities without fighters escorting them, and to do so either in game or in reality would be suicide.
     
  4. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    There probably should be a distinction between air superiority, interceptor, strike fighter, and multi-role fighters.
    However, I believe this is better done with promotions instead of new units;
    but perhaps two different branches of fighters that are skewed between two roles each might do.

    I also figure if Airships upgrade into Fighters, we ought to have some Zeppelins as a pre-Bomber unit.
     
  5. citis

    citis Deity

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    Bombers are the attacking units and fighters are the defending. Right now fighters are a "general use" military airforce able to bomb, scout, defend and attack. I would like to see a specialisation.
     
  6. SheaferDaDawg

    SheaferDaDawg Intelligent Canine

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    Then go with TD's suggestion and use either promotions or two types of fighter unit. Fighters, when you throw them all together, really do bomb, scout, defend and attack. If one wishes to have a fighter doing only one or two of these roles, then I would suggest that we proceed as follows:

    Early Fighter (Bi or Triplane)-->Escort Fighter (Can attack defending fighters) and Interception Fighters -->Jet Fighter (All around and defense) Strike Fighter (Attack defending craft and limited bombing) and Stealth Fighter (Similar to Strike Fighter, but cannot be seen by enemy)
     
  7. baseballpie

    baseballpie Deity

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    Are some of the things like the temp. Amphibious even possible to code?
     
  8. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Yes. Realism invictus has units which give other units promotions when in the same stack.

    I don't really like your XP on harbor building suggestion; that building is so basic you'll hardly ever build a ship in a city without a harbor. I'd suggest a 'Naval Dockyard' as another way to add the xp, which would be necessary to build the later ships (which would force you to make an investment if you want a better navy).

    Your rock-paper-scissor model for ships looks great to me, by the way.
    Some ideas on Air combat improvement could be taken from the LoR mod. It basically expands the air unit tree to four upgrade levels, and adds naval recon planes (to detect subs, IIRC).
     
  9. Hojsimpson

    Hojsimpson Prince

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    Have you played Road to War?
    You could copy things from that mod.
     
  10. GreekAnalyzer

    GreekAnalyzer Back from the Dead

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    Dromons were mostly Byzantine, though the term could be used to describe any particularly large medieval ship.
     
  11. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I would like to take the time to explain my rationale for the +3XP to Harbor.
    I think the early game really drives home this point well, but when dealing with Barbarian ships in the Mediterranean,
    players are extremely dependent on Free Barbarian wins and oftentimes have to use their Galleys for such a task.
    After the wins are spent, you're really at the mercy of Barbarian/enemy Triremes, and Trireme vs. Trireme is a bleak proposition due to RNG.
    The Civ4 BtS Strategy & Tips subforum has explored the topic of ships quite well before, I think. (Tachywaxon, you want to chime in on this?)
    The +3XP to Harbor is meant to alleviate that somewhat, in combination with the lowered Hammer costs across the board for my ships.

    The general mindset as is, concerning ancient navies is:
    "Why bother when my Trireme has a 50/50 shot, and maybe a 40/60 at best to get sunk?
    I'll let them pillage my Fishing Boats and they'll move on and it's easier to replace a Fishing Boat than it is a Trireme."
     
  12. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Ah, now I understand. Yes, barb triremes are extremely bothersome, and a combat 1 might alleviate the problem somewhat. However, so would adding a new unit 'Mediterranean Pirate' which receives a -20% malus on attack, since giving basically every naval unit +3 xp reduces the effect of experience in general.
     
  13. Chep

    Chep Emperor

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    that would still leave the problem of the independent triremes (the moors usually have trouble here with Rome being the same independent civ as some cities in northern Africa.

    I think the promotion-approach might be better here.
     
  14. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Is there any possible way for (L) ships to be created two at a time, a la Zergling?
    I had always originally intended for them to serve a swarming role, and it would actually be the ideal for balance within the system if we were to do this,
    because it gives a more accurate gauge for comparing value in the Rock-Paper-Scissors system.
    2x Light ships created in one turn is more equivalent in value to a Bread & Butter ship created in one turn than 3x Light ships and 2x Bread & Butter ships created in two turns, if that makes sense.
     
  15. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I think it's possible. A little modification of this would do it I think.
     
  16. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    That's perfect!

    So:
    -Zergling build can be obtained from the Venetian Arsenal
    -Temporary promotions can be obtained from Realism Invictus

    Has generating a new unit after a successful kill been covered as well?
     
  17. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    This zerg thing could be used for a lot of things as well. I see many possibilities.

    As for the third thing you've mentioned; in Rise of Mankind (Or I think it is caveman2cosmos, I'm not sure), ships you defeat in combat have a small chance of being captured by you, though you receive it at low hitpoints obviously. I think the code for that could be used for generating new units on kill.
     
  18. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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  19. IrishDragon

    IrishDragon Legend

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    I'd like to see named pirates in the early modern era with bonuses for the most infamous ones, like what was done in TeTurkhans mod, but with the option of potentially hiring them as privateers
     
  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    The unit roster changes will only happen after the next release, but I've still already spent some time thinking about it. Then I went back to this thread and found many ideas again here, which either speaks of the qualities of our ideas or of my subconscious memory ;)

    Anyways, I agree that additional ship types are needed, and that every era needs their own rudimentary rock-paper-scissors set of units. I would do this:

    Ancient/Classical era:
    - Galley (Sailing): transport
    - Trireme (Iron Working): light combat, can retreat
    - Quinquireme (Metal Casting): heavy combat

    Medieval era:
    - War Galley (Machinery): light combat, can retreat, attack bonus on coast
    - Cog (Guilds): transport, faster than Galleys
    - Caravel (Optics): can enter Ocean, on par with War Galleys on coastal defense
    - (maybe) Merchantman (Compass): civilian unit, can perform trade missions (only profitable over long distances), can enter Ocean after Astronomy

    Age of Sail:
    - Galleon (Astronomy): transport (3 units)
    - Frigate (Military Science): light combat, fast
    - Ship of the Line (Chemistry): heavy combat

    "Age of Steam":
    - Ironclad (Steam Power): intermediate, stronger than age of sail ships (can enter Ocean)
    - Cruiser (Steel, Artillery): heavy combat
    - Gunboat (Steel, Artillery): light combat
    - Transport (Steel): transport (duh)

    "Age of Oil":
    - Destroyer (Combustion): light combat, sees submarines
    - Lander (Combustion): transport
    - Convoy (Combustion): faster Merchantman replacement
    - Battleship (Industrialism): heavy combat
    - Submarine (Radio): stealth, can retreat
    - Carrier (Flight - maybe Radio): transports air units

    Modern era:
    - Missile Cruiser (Robotics): heavy combat
    - Stealth Destroyer (Stealth): light combat
    - Supercarrier (Advanced Flight): transports air units
    - Nuclear Submarine (Fission, Refrigeration): stealth, can retreat

    I've opted for more medieval ships instead of late antiquity, and tried to avoid exotic Greek names. Not only because nobody knows them, but because they go against the idea of universal unit names that are applicable outside of the Mediterranean. I'm still not very happy with the Trireme/Quinquireme names because it's odd to see China use them, but couldn't come up with anything better and it certainly approximates the gist of Mediterranean naval technology pretty well. If you have better names, let me know.

    Something I'm not entirely sure about is a Galleass unit (requiring Gunpowder) without Ocean access that should dominate coast tiles until Frigates are around, but I'm not sure. All in all it sounds more like an Italian unique unit.

    Speaking of unique units, the Tamil Dharani would be a Cog replacement under this lineup.
     

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