Air & Water Pollution

[ls612]

Or take farms down just a notch in food. I think they're a bit OP now anyhow.

I would rather increase the amount of yields provided by other things than nerf farms.

 

[Vokarya]

I would rather increase the amount of yields provided by other things than nerf farms.

What can you increase? I usually don't care about hammers except for a handful of cities that are actually building military units, and commerce doesn't mean anything given where levels are now. Science comes fast enough, gold is pretty pointless after the 100%-science-and-still-break-even point, culture doesn't do nearly enough, and I never use espionage when I can just crush the offending party.

 

[ls612]

What can you increase? I usually don't care about hammers except for a handful of cities that are actually building military units, and commerce doesn't mean anything given where levels are now. Science comes fast enough, gold is pretty pointless after the 100%-science-and-still-break-even point, culture doesn't do nearly enough, and I never use espionage when I can just crush the offending party.

I guess, although I don't know if those same conditions remain now with the past month of Koshling's AI enhancements.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think a good idea would be to make a line of autobuilt garbage buildings that depend on civic, city size and maybe some building prerequisites. They would represent what people do with garbage when there is no organized alternative.
Then you could manually build Landfills and similar to improve the situation as they replace the autobuilt garbage buildings.

+1! An excellent idea!

 

[Hydromancerx]

Reduces Air Pollution
- Forest (-5)
- Bamboo (-3)
- Savanna (-4)
- Tall Grass (-2)
- Cactus (-1)
- Kelp (-5)
- Sea Grass (-5)

Reduces Water Pollution
- Jungle (-5)
- Bog (-5)
- Swamp (-5)
- Flood Plains (-5)
- Coral (-5)

Increases Air Pollution
- Active Volcano (+10)
- Dormant Volcano (+5)

Increased Water Pollution
- Tarpits (+5)

Bumping for Thunderbrd.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok... sorry for going on about it in the wrong spot but I'll repost here:

Wait... Jungle doesn't help with Air Pollution? About the only thing keeping Earth anywhere near on track in that dept is our jungles!

It seems you've tried to divide responsibilities for reducing the differing pollution types here but that strikes me as less rational whereas I think you can still strike a good game balance while keeping with good rationale by allowing some to overlap. Besides, if Jungles handle only Water Pollution and Forests handle only Air Pollution, it kinda imbalances the map starts a bit I think. I'm not saying Forests should have much of an impact on Water Pollution nor that I disagree with Jungles helping in that regard, but I'd think Jungles would help a LOT with air pollution.

Also, I've noticed that polar regions tend to suffer less from air pollution thanks to the ability for water to freeze the water vapor out of the air and thus transferring the pollution to the ground (which usually isn't as bad there) so Ice and such would probably help with Air Pollution.

Oh... something I was thinking about the other day regarding this subject... Global Warming triggers... we have the Global Warming being triggered by a particular spot on the Air Pollution level of a given city and that is impacting areas outside of the city radius which does make sense but what I think we need to get that all into balance is a Global property counter for air pollution that controls Global Warming so that one city may contribute a lot to the problem, yes, but doesn't directly trigger it. Even one terribly unmanaged huge city would still be unlikely to have much of an effect on the globe by itself.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

So what are your ideas for new stats of the terrain features? Like Jungle -5 air and -5 water? What values would you put?

 

[bill2505]

@Thunderbrd

So what are your ideas for new stats of the terrain features? Like Jungle -5 air and -5 water? What values would you put?

forest also should have -1 water pollution

 

[Hydromancerx]

forest also should have -1 water pollution

Well that's why I am asking about all of them.

 

[bill2505]

what about except sewers have this
from rometotal war http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/info/Buildings/Building-Water/

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd

So what are your ideas for new stats of the terrain features? Like Jungle -5 air and -5 water? What values would you put?

Ok... I'll do a thorough suggestion workup. The only thing it wouldn't be taking into account is the bigger picture of intended balance consequences so I'd like to hear your thoughts in regards to that in whatever I suggest. I'll consider it from the perspective of what I believe are actual real world effects of these terrain types. Will post that here soon.

 

[Il Principe]

Are pollutions affecting improvements yet? That could severeley cut down city growth if you try to farm land that is about as toxic as a US military installation.
It would also be a good step towards multible improvements on one tile: Sure.. build a farm and a mine on one tile. Should not be a problem, with the mine mostly being underground and not taking up much space on the surface.. but beware of the mines water pollution.

 

[IronClaymore]

Not improvements as such, but water pollution has for a while now decreased yields from coast/ocean tiles if it gets bad enough. However it depends on the pollution in the city itself, not from those particular tiles.

I suppose it makes sense in a strange sort of way. You build farms and mines everywhere, and if there's aqueous pollution that makes the crops wither, what do you do? You wash it away!

I suppose the idea is that you can have vibrant, well fertilised farms producing mountains of food, while nearby the rivers and oceans are a sickly green of algae, slime and bacteria from all the fertiliser/pesticide runoff.

 

[Il Principe]

Not improvements as such, but water pollution has for a while now decreased yields from coast/ocean tiles if it gets bad enough. However it depends on the pollution in the city itself, not from those particular tiles.

I suppose it makes sense in a strange sort of way. You build farms and mines everywhere, and if there's aqueous pollution that makes the crops wither, what do you do? You wash it away!

I suppose the idea is that you can have vibrant, well fertilised farms producing mountains of food, while nearby the rivers and oceans are a sickly green of algae, slime and bacteria from all the fertiliser/pesticide runoff.

But high yield farms with too much water pollution are a no go. Sure much gets washed away, so the rivers feel it first. But sooner or later the ground water gets poluted as well, and then you have trouble growing healthy crobs.

That gives me an idea for an entirely new improveent chain ( that needs to exist alongside otehr improvments of course) : Pipelines. For transporting clean healthy water to a city or farm tiles to wash away polluted water ( have fun on the coast where all the filth washes up).
Not sure how this could be implimented, maybe a mitigation modifier.
If we will have voluminetric resoruces one day, pipelines could of course be itneresting for transporting oil as well.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Reduces Air Pollution
- Forest (-5)
- Bamboo (-3)
- Savanna (-4)
- Tall Grass (-2)
- Cactus (-1)
- Kelp (-5)
- Sea Grass (-5)
- Jungle (-5)
- Ice (-3)
- Permafrost (-2)
- Tundra (-1)
- Coast (-2)

Reduces Water Pollution
- Jungle (-4)
- Bog (-5)
- Swamp (-5)
- Flood Plains (-4)
- Coral (-5)
- Lake (-1)
- Ice (-3)
- Permafrost (-2)
- Tundra (-1)

Increases Air Pollution
- Active Volcano (+10)
- Dormant Volcano (+5)

Increased Water Pollution
- Tarpits (+5)


Suggested adjustments in Red

 

[Il Principe]

But doen´t Ice andpermafrost mean msot of the water frozen, so pollutants have no chance to be washed away?

 

[bill2505]

But doen´t Ice andpermafrost mean msot of the water frozen, so pollutants have no chance to be washed away?

change it then to forest

 

[Thunderbrd]

But doen´t Ice andpermafrost mean msot of the water frozen, so pollutants have no chance to be washed away?

Its about it being neutralized by being encased in the ice. When the ice melts, it washes away with the meltoff. Will help the northern regions that don't gain the benefits of Jungles and such.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

What do you mean by "lake"? I have no idea how you would even determine a lake.

Also why would ice/permafrost/tundra reduce air and/or water pollution? What's the reasoning?

 

[Thunderbrd]

A 'lake' tile is a coastal tile that isn't ocean - I can identify it in game but I can't recall off the top of my head exactly how its worded different in its naming. The cause would be simply diffusion as well as the lake biosphere tends to filter out a lot of toxins.

In regards to your second question, Cold weather tends to fluctuate throughout a given day and throughout the course of the seasons. During the warmest periods, the air can maintain some humidity. The water in the air tends to bond with most forms of pollutants. Then, at night, and certainly as the weather gets colder, this water is frozen out of the air to bring those pollutants to the ground, locking them in ice until meltoff when the water rushes off and washes away the previously trapped pollutants. Water pollution would runoff in the spring rushes as well.

If we had Ground Pollution, for these reasons, such territories would actually have a natural increase to that type because its not as if the pollutants disappear. Its simply that the freezing and cooling cycles tend to rapidly take air and waterborne pollutions and deposit them in the Earth and/or rush them off into the ocean in cyclic meltoff bursts.