Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Sep 6, 2009.
Best of luck with the inevitable war looming!
Round 5: 610 AD to 1230 AD [55 Turns] - Redcoats in Action
Part 1 - Prelude to War
On the first turn of the round, I received a sobering reminder that I was playing deity and not monarch. It looks like my technological "advantage" was a bit short-lived.
I switched Canterbury to build a theatre, anticipating that the Globe Theatre would be built there.
I switched civics, taking advantage of the Golden Age to do this without anarchy.
London moved its citizens off of the cottages (yes, it was painful ... this is why I generally want to get the GP farm in a different city than the research center) and made them merchants. At least I kept the floodplain cottages intact. It would take just 6 turns for the next Great Person to show up - on Epic Speed!
A couple of turns into my Golden Age, Shaka, of all people, built the Taj Mahal. I was quite pleased to see the news, as this meant someone bigger like Peter or Joao II couldn't benefit from the Golden Age.
I was able to enable drafting by getting Nationalism in a trade with Joao II.
As a result, my next technology would be Printing Press.
On this same turn, I found out that I probably wouldn't be able to find any more island cities to settle. Zara would later found a city north of Masawa.
On the upside, in 700 AD, I received a Great Merchant! Now I would be able to upgrade troops with the extra gold. I promptly sent the merchant to Cathage. You can also see from the below screenshot that Augustus went into WHEOOHRN mode! This meant that he was preparing for war. Would it be me or Peter??
My exploring warrior in Roman territory found a mini-stack of doom. It would soon grow larger, though.
With the following trade, I received Banking and Theology. The real prize here was Theology, which meant that after I converted to Islam and Theocracy, the majority of my cities would be producing 2 XP troops without a barracks (and 5 XP with).
Here I'm utilizing another nice feature of BUG - the ALT + M feature. I click ALT + M and a popup appears, which means that in X number of turns, I can give myself a reminder. On this turn, I had just begged Augustus Caesar (before I converted, though), Shaka, and Tokugawa for gold. So I set a reminder to myself to beg again in 40 turns. Apparently, begging works only if you leave a significant gap between the first request and the second request. I haven't delved deeply into the code, though.
After Printing Press, it was time for me to research Replaceable Parts, the direct prerequisite for Rifling. As you can see in the screenshot, Canterbury was slowly getting the Globe Theatre set up while Nottingham worked on those cannons (which came out at 7 XP thanks to a settled Great General).
In 900 AD, I got some good news on the diplomatic front - Augustus Caesar declared war on Tokugawa, who had freed himself from Peter. Whew!
As usual, though, the AI is a bit lacking in warfare. A total of four turns passed between the declaration of war and the screenshot below, and Augustus Caesar still hadn't captured Satsuma. This puzzling phenomenon is even more confusing when you look at the "advanced" troops that Tokugawa had guarding Satsuma.
In 980 AD, I was running out of gold to deficit-research Rifling. It was time to use the Great Merchant.
And soon, in exactly 1000 AD - Rifling!
With Rifling in my hands, I opted to shut down research for a couple of turns. I set Steam Power as the next technology.
With the gold I had, I upgraded some City-Raider I & II macemen to redcoats. Don't be worried - that stack you see below is one of several I had, not my only one.
As an additional plus, you can see that I was first to rifling! Augustus Caesar lacked steel and replaceable parts.
And then - something happened that was a mixed blessing.
Peter (who, a few turns ago, claimed that he was "afraid of Augustus Caesar's military might") made Tokugawa his vassal - so now the Roman-American team was warring vs. the Russia-Japan team! Even Zara Yaqob and Shaka joined the fighting! It was looking more and more like World War I was about to start.
I thought this would be an incredible boon, as Augustus would lose that big stack of grenadiers you saw a couple of screenshots ago.
Anyway, by turn 250, Canterbury was almost ready to start its drafting duties. I had to resort to working citizens in order to finish the Globe Theatre, but it was worth it in the end. Those extra citizens would have been lost through drafting.
At the 251 turn mark, I saw another one of those messages. I'm not sure I understand why we didn't even make the list here.
I received some more good news in that Augustus Caesar defied a passed resolution. Now his cities have -5 happiness!
Peter captured the American city of Atlanta. I better hurry up before he takes all the war spoils! [As a side note - Joao II now has 21 cities, not including the ones he liberated before - he is an insane REXer.]
In 1100 AD, a century after the discovery of rifling by the English, it was time for World War I.
Right before I declared war, I got some gold from Caesar.
[To be continued in the next post]
Round 5: 610 AD to 1230 AD [55 Turns] - Redcoats in Action
Part 2 - War
On the first turn of the war, I captured the American city of Chicago. It's incredibly useful to have your culture extend to be next to the city under siege.
Before the siege:
After attacking and bombarding with cannons and then my redcoats, Chicago was mine. You can see that the choke-point location means that Washington couldn't move troos to his other 2 cities on the peninsula! I also moved my redcoats to attack some soldiers that weren't in cities. It's much easier to kill them on open terrain.
Brief interruption: after getting Scientific Method, courtesy of Joao II, I fould out that getting oil would be pretty easy.
On the second turn of the war, it was time to attack New York with one of my three current stacks. Here were the defenses before the attack started. Washington used to have a 20+ stack of grenadiers, longbowmen, and catapults in New York, but I'm guessing that Peter destroyed them. Yet another advantage of having a powerful ally on your side.
New York was soon captured, relieving a lot of cultural pressure on York and Washington.
Peter proved that he was no slouch, capturing Seattle. That stack of cannons looked scary! At least Boston would gain a lot of tiles back, including that chain-irrigated rice.
Back home in London, a Great Scientist was born. I had no clue what to do with him, so I opted to use him and another Great Person for a golden age after the war. As of the end of this round, he's still sticking around.
Wait - hang on. I said I had three stacks attacking. But you've only seen two. Where was the thrd one?
The large number of defenders in Cumae, combined with the dearth of redcoats, meant that it took two turns for me to capture the city. I lost my first five cannons attacking Cumae! And all were valuable city-raider II cannons. Ugh. But at least the last three succeeded, and the redcoats were perfect in their battles.
(After the cannons were done attacking.)
(The following turn.)
Due to the battles at Cumae, I earned a Great General. I attached him to a war elephant which was promptly promoted to Combat I, Medic III, Morale (+1 movement point), and (later) Leadership.
Meanwhile, my stack attacking the two trapped American cities were having a rout.
I thought this screenshot was quite ironic. I finally slow-built my first redcoat of the game! And this was probably my 25th redocat that I had. It just goes to show that drafting and upgrading are two huge parts of my strategy.
Then the bad news started appearing. Washington broke free of Augustus Caesar, decided he had enough, and vassalized to Peter.
Nonetheless, the war with Rome would continue. I received a surprise as I won the latest AP election. And that's with me voting for Peter.
In 1210 AD, my 28-unit stack was about to capture the battered city of Antium.
It didn't have many assets inside it, but it was still a nice city for relieving the cultural pressure on Cumae.
Then, in 1230 AD, hopes for me capturing more Roman cities were temporarily abandoned. Augustus Caesar vassalized to Peter. I saw this coming from a mile away, but the problem was ... Augustus refused to vassal to me, and I had nothing to bribe Peter out of the war! Tech > Land, and in this game, I didn't have the tech.
Here's part of Peter's army. How ironic that the war would end with the first city that Augustus Caesar captured from Tokugawa a few turns earlier.
So ... this concludes the round. Future strategy will be discussed in the next post.
A state of the world post will follow.
State of the World - 1230 AD
The updated map, with and without resources.
The rest of the world:
Y'know, at least Peter's got some semi-useless island cities.
Top 5 Cities & Wonders:
Now I have a couple of things I'm trying to consider
#1 - Ironworks in Washington or Cumae? Both are nice riverside cities.
#2 - Great People. I'm trying not to generate a Great Scientist. Thoughts? Maybe plan a copropration for the future? (Don't worry - I'm getting the lst university done soon and then will be able to build Oxford in the capital.)
#3 - and the big one - What's my plan for now?
The way I see it, the round was nice with a few blunders by me. My first mistake was sending a stack of mine to capture Los Angeles and Houston, two crappy American cities trapped in a peninsula by the city of Chicago. If I hadn't wasted time on those cities, I could have gotten the much more desirable coastal Roman city of Arpium to the north of Philadelphia before the vassalization of Augustus Caesar occurred. The second mistake I made was not bribing Peter out of the war with Augustus Caesar soon enough. When Peter declared war on Augustus Caesar, the only technology I had on him was Rifling. I decided that I would give Peter a couple of turns of war, then bribe him out of the war. However - literally one turn before I aimed to bribe Peter out of the war - Peter got rifling from a trade. So I had nothing on him - not even Steam Power which Peter beat me to. The gold that I had also wasn't enough to convince him out of the war. So that was a missed opporutnity for me. My third mistake was not prioritizing the last university in Nottingham. You can see from the map screenshot that I still haven't finished the sixth university in Nottingham, which is delaying Oxford University at a time where I desperately need it to be completed. The good news in this round was that the redcoats and cannons performed their duties admirably - Churchill's traits definitely played a part. Also, Canterbury is easily the best Globe Theatre city I've ever had. It was able to draft a redcoat every turn during the war - and this is on Epic speed!
So ... that's the round. It's not the best round I've played. I got my 17th city this round - but Peter also has 17 and has 3 vassals to add on to his resume. I'm not that worried about Washington and Tokugawa as vassals since they will be insignificant, but Augustus Caesar has the potential to be a strong vassal. The bad thing about this is that my border is entirely surrounded by Peter's team - with the exception of maybe one tile of Zara's culture.
I'm not sure how to proceed. Keep civics the way they are? Switch to slavery and whip infrastructure? Declare war on the Peter team and hope that my stack can capture Russian cities while defending from Roman stacks - or the other way around? Declare war on Zara? Stop teching and head for culture? crazyeye Focus on technology and reach the stars with my 17 cities? Ideally I'd like to declare war on Zara Yaqob, but he's my ally. He's pleased, with a +5 from religion and civics - and I'm sure that he gives up to +7 or +8 for religion, so I should be able to get him to Friendly. Peter is now cautious due to his switch from Free Religion and - almost certainly - the most powerful civ on the planet. If this were an off-line game, I'd be punting this last round and starting anew, learning from my mistakes. But I've already played and I don't want to reload for my mistakes in an ALC. We are second in land area, and should gain more land with an emphasis on culture, so I'm sure the game is still winnable as long as Peter is kept in check. My future technology path will be important.
I welcome your thoughts. Meanwhile, good luck to the West in the NBA All-Star game!
The 1230 AD save is attached.
Stock Exchanges would help greatly, in multiple cities. It appears that you are trying very hard to maintain 100% science, but in reality your break-even science rate, looking at the save, is 40%. In fact, I might have even put them before Universities, when playing England, because of the increased bonus.
Around 1000 AD, you had a very good tech situation, but it appears that the others AIs caught up very fast though tech trades, and you missed out on some key ones. You have might have done better to go for Biology instead of Steam Power at this point, especially since you are in no hurry to get Assembly Line.
at your trading Liberalism for a stack of cash from Caesar...
"What else would you like to discuss?"
Well, since you asked, I've always thought your head would look good on the end of a pole.
Bonus for the captured expression in the screenshot.
On the Question of Ironworks, Washington, is the best candidate. Its an ex AI capital, has >11 tiles that'll benefit from a levy and water mills can go on most of those.
Your equal 2 with cities, but need more commerce as has been noted, Banks would be best, but you build these things as you can.
Joao, has many off shore cites for foreign trade routes. What Civic's are all the other civ's in...Mercantilism?? or free market ?? might explain the drop in science/income.
Looks like Peter is set on Domination, best to aim him elsewhere. Try favourate civs to appease him, and keep the stacks handy, pity that Cossacks get flanking V's cannons, but you have Red coasts, but 25% v's horse and Gunpowder might save you, keep building them
lurker's comment: Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but Carthage has three cities in the top five... Hanny pushing culture? Not a bad idea if you have stone and marble in your BFC! I smell Peter and Co gonna strike down Hanny pretty soon...
Keep up the work guys! Good job!
Despite your self-criticism, I think that round played out very nicely. A big windfall was having war allies decimate all the SoDs of your opponents, wouldn't have been quite as fluent otherwise Even if those allies vassalized your enemies in the end... Having a cautious huge Peter on your border is bad news and whether you are planning on conquering his lands or not you should prepare for fighting him
Oh and remember to take away the culture slider, which I assume was for war(/drafting?) weariness
About your begging reminder, I did some bored-research on that in the Taxman SG... resulting in some hard simulation numbers for those way too interested in stuff like these. Here's the post with the raw stuff, which gives the optimal beg interval of 27 turns OR 40 turns depending on if your last beg was accepted or not. 35 turns was the best with a fixed interval. Of course there's a hard cap on how much they are willing to gift you, depending mostly on the turns you've known that Civ (and somewhat on your power), so if you get a couple of successful begs you might not have any chance of getting more until a few dozen turns have passed.
I think the two most important things right now are:
-make sure Peter doesn't get his eyes on you, or you might be toast
-get back in the trading circle
For the first, Bureaucracy and bribing Peter back into Islam might be needed (or spy changing him).
For the second, befriending Peter should help. Also it looks like you can befriend Zara if you stay in Theocracy, he only needs a bit of fair trade bonus to go Friendly. I'd also suggest throwing EPs on Augustus rather than Peter. You won't get any demerits with Peter for stealing from Augustus and he has a fairly close city in Arpinium. Spread Islam there (might have to gift him the missionary as he's in Theo), build Jails and Stock Exchanges, steal a few techs to get back on par with the AIs then turn back the research slider on.
Your current EP output is almost as good as your science output yet techs will cost far less with the discounts through stealing... and you can get several on the same turn! Also, don't forget to destroy the Security Bureau first.
I will put an increased focus on stock exchanges in the next round.
Yes, the AI's caught up fast, and I failed to take advantage due to WFYABTA. In retrospect, Steam Power was a mistake, and I agree I should have researched a tech like Biology.
Thanks, that is fun to watch.
Thanks for your opinion, I'll make Washington the Ironworks. I'll probably cottage over some of Cumae's workshops.
I'm not sure what civics the others are in. Hannibal should be in Free Market since its his favorite civic, but I don't know who else. It would definitely help if Joao was in FM since he has up to 21 cities (many overseas) that can help me.
Peter's favorite civic is Bureaucracy, and in order to keep that civic, I'd have to get rid of not only Nationhood but Free Speech.
I forgot about Hannibal's cultural intentions. I'll keep an eye on them. I don't remember from the map, but there might be a coastal way to attack Carthage (move ships south of Ethiopia and Russia?) which would effectively end the threat. On the other hand attacking Carthage only gives Peter more land area, and he's got more than enough right now.
At the last turn of the round, I did take away the cultural slider (it was after the screenshots were taken).
Very interesting, 27 vs 40 turns (so at least I was right with the 40 ). I'll definitely keep that thread in mind.
If I don't want Peter to attack me, I'll likely have to switch back to Bureaucracy, which would end any more drafting. (Of course, I'm screwed again if Peter decides to switch OUT of his favorite civic.) Or I could hope he makes a demand. I think converting him to Islam via spy would be kind of costly, and risky if he catches a spy. What do you think about that? London is a solid research center so Bureaucracy would add a nice amount of commerce, which would then be converted to beakers and gold.
I could try to steal techs from Augustus. I'd need a huge amount of espionage, and as you can see the only way I'll do that is by raising the spy slider.
Zara should be friendly with me soon, so I'm hoping he can be on my side if Peter has eyes my way. Zara declares war at pleased, too.
To all - any thoughts on tech path? I originally thought I would want to research Steam Power - Assembly line, but perhaps that's not the best plan now?
Don't take it as robust scientific evidence, more like a rough ballpark-figure. With fixed intervals it gives ~159p for 40turns and ~165p for 35turns so the difference is quite neglible, 30turns is very much in the same ballpark as well. Main thing is to not use sth like 20 or 25 turn fixed intervals which I sometimes see proposed as they are much much worse
You're pretty popular in the AP. Any chances of a Diplomatic Victory? I'd worry that Peter would have a good shot at ending that though. Space Race is out of the question on Deity, and it's too late to have a shot at Cultural.
If you can't win by Diplomacy though, that will leave Conquest and Domination as your only remaining options.
Also, I don't see you likely having a good chance of winning while Peter remains this powerful. You need to take him down, either now, or beeline to the next iteration of military techs and go for him again. You can see where all the oil is in his terrain by now, so with use of espionage, you could drain his oil reserves and kill him with better technology.
Of course, I play at Prince, so I have no idea how useful this information is. Mostly just trying to help you bounce ideas.
Boy, this is a toughie. My experience as a Monarch/Emperor level player likely does not apply, but at my level my first thought would be to see if I might be able to make a surgical strike into Peter's lands to cause as much damage as possible in as little time possible.
I don't know how Peter's power has been affected by the last war, but it may be the only time you'll get to do something if you feel that your military can take and hold for a while.
I say this because Peter seems to have three distinct cities that are sure to be his main core - Novgorod (does the star by the city name denote the FP or Vers. in there?), Moscow (the capital of course) and St. Petersburg (the Islamic Holy City and his largest from what I can see). If you were able to get to those three cities it would be a major blow. I guess you could even consider razing one or more if you felt the situation was dire enough. They are no terribly far from your borders, though I fully realize that Cossacks would be a major pain in the rear despite Redcoats.
If you try to wait it out, I don't think you'd be able to catch/surpass him even for the next level of military techs - and you'd be looking later at a modern war where you also might have to track down other civs for their culture or spaceships.
Again, don't know what Deity level dictates here, but with the advantage of human military strategy and the hopes that Peter's own military remains a bit scattered for the time being, I look to those cities I mentioned and wonder if they might be had quickly. Perhaps you might even be able to use the AP to get others on board and/or stop the war when you have what you need.
I would also think that AC and the other vassals are also affected by the latest war and would not have the ability to mount a major push anywhere - and your Redcoats can defend well enough. Perhaps a grab at the one AC city you had mentioned could be done should things go well enough.
Might have just advocated suicide here, but it certainly shows the differences in difficulty levels.
I haven't played against Peter that much so I don't know how likely he is to opt out of Bureaucracy.
Religion converting missions aren't that expensive with discounts but the risks of having the spy caught are there yes.
Staying in Nationhood has 3 advantages right now:
- drafting redcoats (the biggest advantage by far)
- 2 happy per city with barracks (not negligible here)
- +25% espionage per city (this can be quite significant)
You can always take the war behind Peter (say, Hannibal/Joao etc.) but fighting Peter right now doesn't look too great unless you get a lot more troops and find a way to eliminate Peter's SoD on the first turn of war. I think it's more realist to go fight someone without rifles right now (they'll probably get it midwar but redcoats prevail) than try to take out Peter. Not saying it's not possible, just hard.
Turning the research slider off isn't disastrous in itself. There aren't that many techs available for trade right now (most are WFYABTA already). Zara has a few techs you might be able to broker for when he goes to Friendly. Maybe take advantage of Nationalism, steal Biology(or another monopoly tech) from AC and should Peter "bribe" you into Bureaucracy, you can always go back to manual research.
Of course it works best if you can get some of the EP multipliers (Jails) but you still get about the same output than research (and techs cost less via espionage with discounts).
I'd leave Peter for later and pick on the minor nations. Bombers should make short work of Peter later on or even nukes.
Hi guys! (Will respond to your comments soon)
Just curious: can cannons bombard city defenses while attacking amphibiously? Just wanted to check since they might be needed in destroying a certain cultural city soon.
Nope; but frigates and the like can do that
Wow, amphibious attacks will suck. Maybe I need to make a change in my plans ....
Sorry everyone, but Peter became a tech monster. He beelined towards Fission and then Computers. He immediately built the Manhattan Project and used tactical nukes on a barbarian city to prove that he has nuclear weapons. And, naturally, he built the internet as well. He and Hannibal signed a defensive pact, and Hannibal is about 30 turns away from a cultural victory. I don't see a way out of this. Sorry again.
Why is a loss such a bad thing? As learning goes, games that end up in a loss often teach at least as much as ones that are won, even for us spectators. Also there was tons of good stuff in the game already, and it was nearing a stage where it's either a semi-certain win or semi-certain loss - at that point it's not so good for a learning experience regardless of which it is. I still hope we get a proper report for the rest of this one!
The game was great, your reports were great, sometimes Deity just is as Deity does. At least your game didn't end in two dagger DoWs before 1700BC Could have been hard to showcase your traits and UB/UU in that case.
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