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ALC 27: Churchill of England

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I say settle 1N on the river. You will get that lone fish while leaving the southern seafood for another city in the woods. The gold can be claimed by a secodn city alng the river.

    The blue circle losing health because of lack of fresh water.
     
  2. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    This ignores the importance of getting gold (or any other resource) in the capital. Claiming resources fast is extremely important. Seven commerce times two thousand years is simply huge, especially when they come in the early game. The fact that a capital also gets an early library and benefits from bureaucray adds even more to the power of gold.

    Secondary cities also have other priorities, such as claiming the copper. What's more, there is no reason whatever to think that the gold can ever be worked at all if you settle one north. It will require food resources, and plenty of them, up the river. There is a big difference between in place and 1N in this regard...
     
  3. Nyarlathothep

    Nyarlathothep Mazed.

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    I'd start with workboat, workboat, worker; and I'd settle on the blue circle as well.

    But I guess it may be overkill to start with two workboats, I am not that sure about it. :confused:
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I am in favor of settling on the blue circle. I'm going to make a pros list like Killroyan.

    1. Gold (desert and not riverside though)
    2. More floodplains
    3. Plains hill
    4. 3 food resources (and they're all different, good)
    5. Only 1 "bad" tile (desert north of gold)
    6. NO Ocean tiles (all coast)
    7. Opens a city to the south
    8. 3 mineable hills for some production at least (although food is by far more important than how much production we get for an early capital)
    9. From the surrounding land, there's a good chance that settling on the blue circle can block off a choke point, assuming enough border pops
    10. It seems like the desert might extend further beyond the capital, making a second city to claim the gold unlikely
    11. +1 happiness

    Overall, I'm going to settle on the blue circle. In my Gandhi/Deity game that I posted, I got off to a very slow start because all the good tiles in my capital were not riverside and I didn't have any early commerce resource in Delhi. This resulted in my beakers count being stuck at 9 while I tried to found a second city, which definitely is not want I want. Hopefully the unhealthiness won't be too bad since I'll definitely start with a workboat right off the bat (for the fish) which is an instant +1 :health:.

    By the way everyone, no one mentioned that this is epic speed (as Sisiutil started the tradition) so losing 1 turn by moving is hardly a big deal compared to normal speed.

    lange17, I prefer if you keep spoilers in a separate thread, like Sisiutl. Thanks. :)

    Lastly, there's going to be some overlap between ALCs 26 and 27, hopefully that won't be a problem. I'm a slow player as most of you who have followed my previous games know so I definitely won't finish before L P.
     
  5. v8_mark

    v8_mark Prince

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    :lol:

    I read this and my jaw dropped. "What crazy deity strategy could this be?" I thought - until I realized, reading your points, that you actually meant on the blue circle ;)
     
  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Settle 2N1E. Early gold will make up for any disadvantage: especially the extra happy, extra research and extra expansion funds.
     
  7. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    :blush:
     
  8. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    3 very big srgumants to at least settle in place

    1) You keep fresh water. Less desert (thus less unhealthyness). You are trading 2 ocean tiles for 1 desert. Long term plans are that your capital still can build a levee (with riverside floodplains towns at US is pretty damned powerful late game).

    2) Consider the massive number of forrests for health and chopping in the capital. 7 that I see and moving to the blue circle gives you TWO.

    3) Generally the random settler placement function anticipates a second city to splt the resources, thus there is likely something decent west of the gold. Settling city #2 where the warrior is currently still get's you the fish and gold upon the city border pop.

    4) There is a grassland tile SE of the current settler which could be something rather valuable.

    Everyone's points are good about moving, but I think you needs a devil's advocate about settling in place.

    EDIT: OK 4 reasons!
    EDIT 2: rewrote a bit.
     
  9. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    While I am certainly in favour of settling blue dot, a list of the cons is also worth putting together. In my view, the warrior move not only increased the value of blue dot, it also swung the decision decisively against 1N so the alternate to discuss is settling in place.

    1. Far more health. Blue dot will have health problems at size 2 without the seafood and at size 4 with it. In place starts with eight health without any resources at all.

    2. The fish and the gold can be claimed by a city north of blue dot, thus allowing the city to grow rapidly to the happy cap (size eight with the gold and char).

    3. Eight forests to chop, speeding up expansion.

    4. There are two uncovered tiles in the original BFC, either or both of which might have resources. Blue dot gives up both.

    Edt: x-post with Mad
     
  10. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    I would never turn down gold in the fat cross of my capital, let alone with a civ that starts with mining.
     
  11. lange17

    lange17 Chieftain

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    Oops, sorry, didn't know. I'll just shadow quietly.
     
  12. sveusb

    sveusb Chieftain

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    I frequently lurk, but rarely comment.
    I favor settling in place and using the location one north of the blue circle for second city. The second city would have all of the resources of a city on the blue circle and allow the capital to be settled in place. This capital location would have more production than the blue circle. I find that production in capital is very important in the early game.
     
  13. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    True, but I doubt I want the second city north of the blue circle. On deity, land gets gobbled up quickly, and I don't like to have a second city be 3 tiles from the capital - I would rather block land or snatch an awesome city site.

    So the plan now looks like this:

    -Settle on the blue circle
    -Work the floodplains while building a workboat
    -As soon as borders pop, work the 3:hammers: tile.
    -Connect fish, build a warrior
    -When size 2, either finish the warrior (if original warrior dies to barbarians) or switch to a worker.
    -When worker comes out, finish warrior if necessary or start a second workboat. If space is limited and there's a super city site nearby, a settler at size 2. The worker will pasture the pigs first then mine the gold.

    What do you think of this tech path:

    Hunting (Archery, if necessary, and camps, if necessary; it's also cheaper than agriculture) - AH - Archery (if lots of space, if not, skip) - Wheel - Bronze Working
     
  14. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    Hoping that my comment was not made too late ;), I also support settling on the blue circle...
     
  15. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    Settling on the blue circle seems like a wonderfull capital. Plenty of food, commerce, health, coastal, gold and even a plains hill :goodjob:. You will be able to run 8 happiness off the bat, with only mysticism research.

    Do not underestimate the power of an 8 pop capital in the early BC's.

    Off to the general strategy itself. I strongly suggest you abuse the protective, charismatic traits.

    If you have got 3-4 AI's on your continent, you should strongly consider making one that borders you an enemy.

    If you play it out well, you can run a profitable defensive war that nets you gold/exp points and GG's.
    Upgrade your archers to drill 4 if possible, and you are set to slaughter everyone to your pleasing when you hit nationalism/rifling.

    Good luck, I will certainly will keep my eye on this game
     
  16. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I've played 10 turns so far, and there is indeed an opportunity for an early war. But is it optimal? We're on a pangea-like map actually.

    I'm going to finish up round 1 on Sunday (6 days) and post it then.
     
  17. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    My guess is that this is over stated. After all, you're going to work Fish/Clam/Pig/Gold, followed by FP/FP/FP/FP/FP. That second tier is food neutral while you get other health benefits on line.

    Shrug. Pick one. Somebody will shadow the other. Of course, if you are willing to punt turn zero, you have a couple interesting scouting options that may clarify the picture.
     
  18. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    You do not have to DoW yourself, you can make yourself get DoW'ed :D

    All about the mindgames
     
  19. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    Mwahahahaha!!!!!! Have you met all the nice neighbors yet?
     
  20. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 1: 4000 BC to 3000 BC [40 Turns] - Initial Exploration


    What? A round already? I just realized that today was Labor Day :rolleyes: so I didn't have to go to school after all. Lol silly me.

    Anyway, as mentioned previously, I settled on the blue circle. I started building a workbot immediately because food is priority #1 in the early game (and possibly all game). I worked the unpastured pigs because that tile had the best hammer yeild within the 8 initial surrounding tiles. My warrior went northeast to explore.



    Hunting was my first technology, for several reasons. It enables archery, if necessary, camps (if necessary) and is a cheaper prerequisite to AH than Agriculture is (and we don't have agriculture resources here yet).



    My exploring warrior soon met a neighbor - Tokugawa (Aggressive/Protective). This wasn't good news, as Tokugawa's one of the worst AI's to start next to. However, my fears were mitigated soon after since we met Augustus Caesar (Imperialistic/Industrious) and George Washington (Charismatic/Expansive). Washington is a much nicer neighbor.





    As you can see below, as soon as the borders popped on the ninth turn, I worked the highest hammer tile, which I often do for workboats since they gain back food very quickly, especially coastal fish.



    After Hunting, I researched Animal Husbandry in order to improve the pigs and hopefully reveal horses. Incidentally, we missed a cow in the starting big-fat-cross. :mad:



    I mentioned that an early war might be possible, and here's why.



    Pretty close, isn't he? The downside is that he's charismatic, like me, but the upside is that his capital is not on a hill.

    Here's how London looked like with an improved fish. I opted to partially-build a warrior while growing London to size 2 to build a worker. I hate building workers when the food bar is almost full - it seems like such a waste when I can grow 1 size larger soon.



    A worker was soon started. The warrior would end up being completed in one turn after the worker. Also, you can see that I've switched from the plains hill forest to a floodplain, which nets an extra commerce while still giving the same production to workers since workers take both hammers and food while they are being produced.



    Soon, I researched Animal Husbandry. Sadly, there were no horses, but at least we had pigs. I set research to The Wheel (rather than archery) because there seem to be a lot of AI's which negates the need for many archers. I might still research archery in the near future, though, to take advantage of the Protective trait.



    The worker hooked up the pigs first, since pigs are a higher priority than gold right now.



    After researching the Wheel, I ended the round. (I've selected Archery as a placeholder technology, but no beakers have been invested yet.)



    The map.



    My proposed dotmap:



    Foreign advisor:



    Everyone's favorite civic:



    So what do you think? We seem to have plenty of nice land - the only problem will be if the AI's take it away from us. Does anyone think a rush on Washington is viable assuming we can find copper and/or iron? Another thing to consider is that Washington is the worst enemy of lots of people, so if I eliminate him, who will the aggressive civs attack? (Shaka is also in the game because of the bug in the foreign advisor.) Also, there is 1 other unknown civ (2 really since I've yet to meet Shaka). Hopefully he/she is isolated and will be a non-factor.

    Washington is currently unhealthy - but a workboat will be completed next turn for the clams. What to build afterwards? Another warrior? A settler? If I want to get my second city by the corn I'll definitely have to make a settler ASAP or risk losing the spot to Washington, who I'm sure will expand there.

    I'm going to ponder this start carefully this week, and gather information on all known AI's from the reference tables.

    EDIT: See below.

    Link to info: http://www.asjotools.com/misc/CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.htm


    1. Washington

    Wonder Construction: 20
    Base Attitude: 0
    Base Peaceweight: 8
    Warmonger Respect: 0
    WFYABTA: 10 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 30
    Building Unit Probability: 25
    Same religion attitude max.: +5
    Favorite civic: Free Speech

    2. Augustus Caesar

    Wonder Construction: 40
    Base Attitude: 0
    Base Peaceweight: 8
    Warmonger Respect: 1
    WFYABTA: 15 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 40
    Building Unit Probability: 25
    Same religion attitude max.: +3
    Favorite civic: Representation

    3. Tokugawa

    Wonder Construction: 20
    Base Attitude: -1 :)()
    Base Peaceweight: 1
    Warmonger Respect: 2
    WFYABTA: 5 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 100 :)mad:)
    Building Unit Probability: 30
    Same religion attitude max.: +3
    Favorite civic: Mercantilism

    4. Hannibal

    Wonder Construction: 10
    Base Attitude: 0
    Base Peaceweight: 2
    Warmonger Respect: 2
    WFYABTA: 10 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 30
    Building Unit Probability: 30
    Same religion attitude max.: Information is MISSING!
    Favorite civic: Free Market

    5. Peter

    Wonder Construction: 30
    Base Attitude: 0
    Base Peaceweight: 1
    Warmonger Respect: 2
    WFYABTA: 15 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 10 :)goodjob:)
    Building Unit Probability: 30
    Same religion attitude max.: +4
    Favorite civic: Bureaucracy :)goodjob:)

    6. Joao II

    Wonder Construction: 20
    Base Attitude: 0
    Base Peaceweight: 6
    Warmonger Respect: 1
    WFYABTA: 15 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 40
    Building Unit Probability: 25
    Same religion attitude max.: +3
    Favorite civic: Hereditary Rule

    7. Shaka

    Wonder Construction: 10
    Base Attitude: -1 :)()
    Base Peaceweight: 2
    Warmonger Respect: 2
    WFYABTA: 5 Techs
    Tech Trade Known %: 50
    Building Unit Probability: 40 :)eek:)
    Same religion attitude max.: +3
    Favorite civic: Police State :)cry:)

    8. ??????????

    Mystery AI!
     

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