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ALC 27: Churchill of England

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by DMOC, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    Nice posting, could you make few of these type in our SGOTM?
     
  2. stuttrboy

    stuttrboy Warlord

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    I see. It appears green on the screenshots. I was beginning to wonder if this is why I still can't handle immortal and deity.
     
  3. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Looks like there's been plenty of good discussion going on! :D I won't be able to post another round until October 10th but I'll comment on whatever you guys have to say.




    Going peaceful might be a good idea in this case, but an early war is much more exciting for me.

    Washington's tech pace isn't fast this game so I'm pretty sure he won't have longbows by the time we have a war. I'm only aiming to get his capital, San Francisco, and one of his other bordering cities.


    Interesting note about hammer decay, I did not know that.

    I'll uphold your tip on holding off peace. It makes sense since they can waste their time building up military instead of teching. I don't think it'll lower the peace cost unless I kill another soldier of theirs.

    I'm fairly sure I won't get the marble peacefully, which points towards a war with Washington to get it. It's in the BFC of Washington DC.

    You're right about Washington not having Meditiation or Polytheism, which is another fact that supports an early war vs. Washington.

    Ok no wonders + war at the same time ... ok :lol:

    If granaries start to acumulate food halfway through the food bar, then wouldn't it make even more sense to finish it the turn before growth, since the turn after, the city will instantly have a food bar that's half-full?

    I'll think about founding some of the sea islands. My issue with them is that they're always vulnerable to an attack and rarely prove to be essential cities.

    Thanks for enjoying the read! :)

    This made me remember that I need to understand what granaries really do.



    It's definitely informative to me.

    I still am a bit unsure as to why building the granary at the halfway point is optimal, but I'll reread your posts until I get it. But anyway the granary's already been built in the capital so I think that future cities should try building granaries halfway through, or whipping them asap.


    Yep. :)


    Nah, that's because BUG sets the gold amount to be green even if I'm losing gold. It's only red if I'll be going to negative gold in my stockpile.
     
  4. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    In short no. I have no idea why they programmed stupid way they are programmed, but if you have more than half [even 1 more] you get less afterwards.


    I also saw on early shots what you did grow on size four and into one unhealthiness just to work unimproved FP [egfectively+1gold]. Clearly way to go:goodjob:
     
  5. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

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    In this game with so many little tricks (and few of them critical to winning in of themselves), it's not surprising that someone might miss a detail or two. You tend to learn these things as you come across them either in discussion or through trial and error.

    I guess in terms of the food stored while building a granary, the better move would be to starve the city back to half-way and then finish the granary, right?
     
  6. JujuLautre

    JujuLautre Deity

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    The granary is easy to understand: it stores food. It may seems presumptuous to say that, but that it exactly how it works.

    Let's say you have a city with +4 food per turn. Without a granary, you will have a food bar growing 4 by 4: 4, 8, 12, 16...
    If you have a granary, it will grow in parallel: 4(4), 8(8), 12(12), 16(16)... Not sure if it stops at half the full bar, but the idea is that, when the population grows, it will fill the food bar with as much as it have at the moment, capped to half of the bar obviously.

    The trick is when you build the granary half-way: then you have something like 4, 8, 12, 16(4), 20(8). So if the city would grow at this point, the granary would give the city 8 food to begin with. Not half of the bar, only the food it has accumulated so far.

    I believe the reason why they programmed it this way is to avoid micro managing: if if functioned like DMOC thought, players would try to build it just before growth and micro manage. This way, you can build it any time and it will work, but the faster the better. Of course, you can still micro manage, since it will not change if you build it after city growth or when the bar is half full :p
     
  7. Coffee Mug

    Coffee Mug Chieftain

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    Am I missing something? It looks like all you've proved is that it's better to have the granary sooner rather than later. Filling the granary is independent of city growth.
     
  8. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    For sake of being total clear -
    once granary is made there is check inside game
    once a city grows next time that check cames into action - food you get gets penalty for being over half [on check point] actually [i think you get something like remaining part untill growth but not more than half or something like that]

    In our case it was better to work pig instead of fp and grow one more population point. this would get more food and hammers now and after growth.

    I was probably a bit rude on DMOC since this is not the very basics [honestly i needed a bit sorting myself:)]. although i did consider this being very general knowledge.

    p.s. isn't it best to build granary with empty food bar actually? Or did they changed something in last path?
     
  9. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Filling the granary is about when does it start storing food. A granary does that after half the food is filled. So If you finish your granary after that point, you will be lacking food after the growth (that's what my 4th pic was about, you lacks 3 food compared to the situation of the 3rd pic)

    That's the difference between 2nd and 3rd pic. It was patch 3.19 and the food stored was the same in both case (11 food). There won't be any difference, so it's prolly better to grow faster and finish the granary halfway through the growth to next pop if you can make that happen.

    Cheers
     
  10. euripides

    euripides Chieftain

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    I think you also have the choice to conquer eAryan, that barb city to the south.
    That can be used for training during buildup or as your 6th city on mainland, and then settling the islands? dunno if there are resources on them, but traderoutes may be good and then renaissance war.
    But in thinking more about that matter, I suppose attacking GW is better. he will still have some time to chop the jungle and build plantations for you ;-) At least captur Washington, NY, Boston and SanFran (maybe raze and resettle further east?)!
     
  11. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Well, I ended up playing the next round up to turn 171 (35 BC). Suffice to say, this third round is probably the best round I've played in my entire CIV career. In fact, things went so well that I'm kind of glad I lost the Music race to Peter by 2 turns - I would have been embarrassed had everything gone my way!

    London (if managed correctly) can generate 104 beakers in the BC era. Without bureaucracy. :eek:

    Sneak Preview.
    Spoiler :


    Yeah, stupid Joao II decided that he didn't want 15 cities so he gave some to his colony. But seriously, how the heck did Joao II manage to get 15 cities while everyone else was stuck at 5-10??

    I'll post the round soon, maybe tomorrow.
     
  12. Nares

    Nares Emperor

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    Granaries start accumulating food halfway through the food bar on a 1:1 basis. So for every 1 food you produce from 11/22, you get 1 food in some magical breadbasket.

    There's some specific micro in there, such as the sweetspot might be 12/22, and when the granary starts storing food in relation to when it's complete. But, that's essentially how the granary works.

    EDIT: Am I like the 50th person to say this?
     
  13. Soirana

    Soirana Emperor

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    Fixed your statement:lol:. i suggest looking at Raskolnikov pictures to figure out truth.
     
  14. Nares

    Nares Emperor

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    You lose food for each food over 11/22 you are when the granary starts collecting.

    You actively collect each food from 12/22-22/22, putting 11 food in your basket (+overflow from working tiles) when you hit the next pop.

    EDIT:That is exactly what RRR said.

    However, it's not entirely true.

    After doing some digging and some testing, I found this.

    The granary threshold isn't 50% of the current food bar. It's 50% of the current food bar -food overflow at growth. An overflow of 5 food at 23/24 (pop2) can complete a granary at 16/24 instead of 12/24.

    The overflow is added to the granary before growth, and again in growth. First, you would gain 6:food: going from 16/24 to 23/24, plus 1:food: going from 23/24 to 24/24, plus 5:food: more from overflow, for a total of 12:food: in the basket. You would then pick up an additional 5:food: of overflow into 0/26(pop3), for a total of 17/26 (5:food:+12:food:).

    This means that the 50% value is relevant only in relation to your food surplus in the turn of growth. There are some cases where you'd still want to target 50% (or just under it), but I feel the vast majority of cities will have some surplus greater than zero to accommodate a later completion date.
     
  15. Kwibuss

    Kwibuss Warlord

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    Because he's is THE Joao :) If there is 1 leader that is capable of doint it it's Joao the master rexxer.
    Looking forward to your update!
     
  16. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 3: 750 BC to 35 BC [42 Turns] - The Fall of America


    Time to get moving here.

    I finished Masonry, and researched Construction next.



    In order to gain some gold, I went around begging AI's. I tried to beg 40 gold from Hannibal (that was all he had) but he refused. :sad:



    But onto more important news ... the barbarian city (Aryan) to the south fell. To me.



    This city was defended by 5 archers and had 2 workers. So how did it fall to my lonely 3 axemen?

    Washington suicided 6 units. :lol: That left 2 archers in the city, and both were somewhat wounded. The extra workers were nice!

    As I mentioned before, Joao II split off his cities into a colony, Napoleon (Organized/Charismatic).



    I immediately made a technology trade with him (I think it was for Currency, but I'm not sure).

    ...

    Soon, my troops were in position. My cities were really whipped and I had to stack unhappiness at times, which explains my 0% tech slider. Here's the stack for Washington DC. Another group of axemen and catapults were going to attack San Francisco. Both cities were, fortunately, on flatland.



    So did Washington have longbows? Nope.



    WAR!

    I first decided to attack this swordsman who was outside of a city and guarding a worker. I like to eliminate troops who are outside of cities since they don't experience a defensive bonus. My first axe failed but the next one won at 99% odds, and I moved the stack onto that tile.



    The city of San Francisco also fell. It was guarded by 5 units, but only 2 were archers! :goodjob: This city used to have about 8 units in it but Washington obviously suicided at least 4 units vs. barbarians.



    Washington outdid my expectations by sending a moderate stack of units to attack York. Good thing I was protective. Just to be safe, though, I upgraded a warrior to an axemen (ouch!). It was pricey, but the city held. I had 2 archers and that axe defending the city. Both archers perished (how does the AI do that??) but the axe won his battle by flying colors.



    Meanwhile, Washington itself fell.





    I was a little disappointed at the lack of a counter-attack. I've noticed that when the AI is in a war, it doesn't send enough troops to counterattack. Why, for instance, isn't Washington attacking London at the moment?



    I got my first Great General and settled him in Nottingham.

    Boston was the next city to fall. I had a stack of 11 units attacking a 4 unit stack(1 was whipped the turn before I attacked), but it was on a hill. :mad: Too many casualties. Fortunately, Washington decided that he wanted to hole up 10 units in New York and leave a stack of 1 axe and 1 spear in my territory doing nothing. :lol:



    The stack that had captured Washington then went to Philadelphia. The stack was definitely not as powerful as it was, but it was still enough for Philadelphia. Isn't it great that Washington decided to found his cities on flatlands?





    [To be continued in next post.]
     
  17. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Round 3: 750 BC to 35 BC [42 Turns] - The Fall of America

    [Continued from previous post]

    Seriously ... taking the seventh derivative isn't that hard (see the discussion on page 9).

    Example:

    f(x) = x^7
    f'(x) = 7x^6
    f''(x) = 42 ^ 5
    f'''(x) = 210x^4
    f''''(x) = 840x^3
    f'''''(x) = 2520x^2
    f''''''(x) = 5040x
    f'''''''(x) = 5040

    Come on that wasn't too hard, wasn't it? The eighth derivative of f(x) is actually zero. :eek:

    I hope that the nasty function I posted cancels out somewhere. I have yet to attempt it, actually.

    ------------------

    Anyway the war with Washington was increasingly yielding poorer returns. The cities I captured were of lower quality, and Washington started to have about 5-6 defenders per city, and my troops were getting worn out. Furthermore, I was suffering from +1 unhappiness in London.



    Not bad for a "little" war. And Washington immediately became "cautious" with me afterwards.

    I renegotiated my resource deals with Hannibal to increase the potential size of my cities.



    At this point I decided to go on a really weird gambit ... I noticed that no one had researched Music! So I cranked up research to 100% with my new empire. My empire is now capable of producing >200 :science: consistently, in the BC era.



    Unfortunately, Peter beat me. I guess that's good ... this whole round went into my favor (winning some lucky battles, that barbarian city, etc.) that I'm glad I hit a setback.



    I had plenty of overflow from last turn, so I put it into a 1-turn archer for an extra hereditary rule happiness. Note the overflow: 37 hammers + 2 hammers = 39 hammers which equals the archer cost. Anything more (or would it just be if I got 40 hammers of overflow?), and I would have wasted production because overflow is capped at the build cost.



    I later finished Music, and thus, the round. Music is an excellent technology because of (1) the trading factor, (2) building culture in cities, and (3) the free great artist, which I sadly didn't get.



    Next technology: Civil Service so that my capital can produce >100 beakers without building research (at the time of the screenshot, it produces around 86-90 beakers - not bad, although I'm sure players better than me could improve on my research rate).



    The Map: With and Without Resources

    Spoiler :




    Individual Cities - In Depth Analysys - (Not all cities are featured)

    Spoiler :

    Aryan is building a trireme for exploration. This city will probably be cottaged.


    Hastings is building a library. I have a workboat who is literally on the exact tile of the clam with no movement points left. Next turn, Hastings will have 2 clams connected. I was thinking of making this a science city, but thought that having the Globe Theatre here would be nice. This city would be a great candidate since I already have other cities that can run specialists. The downside, though, is that Hastings is far away from any war front, except for Ethiopia and Russia.


    Canterbury will be a city that also runs specialists (in addition to London). This city would be a nice hybrid of production and research. I don't think this city needs to be cottaged. I will chop the jungles and build mines ASAP. The lighthouse will facilitate growth once its construction is completed. A worker is improving the bananas right now.


    Nottingham is easily the best production city for my empire, boasting hills, a river, cows, and copper. Right now, all it has is a granary, monument, and a barracks. I am building a library there, but am thinking that a forge might be better. Thoughts? If I build research here (a definite possibility) then a forge is better. Also, I think the Heroic Epic should go here.


    Washington will be a great addition to the empire once it gets some buildings produced (actually, it's a great addition to the empire right now). I am building a library there now but forgot that I can just build research for culture (always forget that). Washington could be either a production city or research city. Thoughts?


    Boston as a city sucks right now, but it just recently came out of revolt. Thankfully, its tiles are mostly improved. Again, I forgot that I could just build culture in this city .... This will probably be cottaged.


    York is another production city, and has 16 turns to go for a Great Scientist. I'm thinking of using him on Education after manually researching Philosophy and Paper, or trading for those two techs.


    London is the ultimate science city in my empire. It is producing almost 50% of my total beakers. Right now the city has 4 unhealthiness after I got rice from Shaka, so that explains the Aqueduct. However, should I be building the National Epic instead? It takes 13 turns, thanks to the marble. I currently have a worker cottaging the 3 remaining tiles.



    Technology:

    Spoiler :


    Resource deals:

    Spoiler :


    Glance:

    Spoiler :


    Domestic:

    Spoiler :


    GNP:

    Spoiler :


    Demographics:

    Spoiler :


    Top 5 Cities & Wonders: Interesting ... looks like Hannibal and Tokugawa are the wonder-hoggers.

    Spoiler :


    Aargh ... all of this work and I'm still in the bottom third of the score.

    Joao II still has the most amount of cities even after splitting a colony ... hm ....
     
  18. BaronVonCP

    BaronVonCP Chieftain

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    can't wait for this next part! great game/discussion so far
     
  19. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Thanks.

    I have a ridiculous amount of calculus homework to do so this round won't be updated until tomorrow at least. :mad:
     
  20. stuttrboy

    stuttrboy Warlord

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    These ALC's usually have more activity than this. I know DMOC is busy but there's usually more discussion. I've been gone a while is this normal?
     

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