ALC Game 17 Pre-Game Thread

[budweiser]

When I play Cathy (Russia), I usually leverage hunting by going to AH 1st, then BW. AH will reveal horses, and give the worker (that I build first), two things to do while BW or possibly Agg comes in. Scouts often beget scouts so I dont build a second scout right off.

 

[Validator]

Traits: Expansive (+2 health per city, double production speed of Worker, Granary, and Harbour)

I thought expansive gave a +50% boost (to hammers only) for production of workers.

 

[oyzar]

how is 3-5 worker turns not a huge benefit(5 turns with a plains forest hill, 3 otherwise). Also if you research AG first you can help improve your land imensly. If you are going for BW first after all you can grow while building scout, then stagnate growth at size 2 until it is done then whip the worker asap for just 2 turns wasted. You do get the full hammer bonus from the whip after all. It is almost always better to just grow as normal then whip the workers instead of producing them with mines... Whip whip whip. That is where you get maximum out of the hammer bonuses. I almost never build workers or settlers without some sort of hammerboost(some mix of loads of overflow/chopping/whipping).

and yeah the hammer bonus is only +50% so 45 hammers instead of 30 on normal speed etc. With some overflow that is easy a worker in two turns by the help of one pop in the early game.

 

[Welnic]

I'm thinking of not having Welnic check the map at all this time, even to avoid an isolated start. I'm willing to give it a go again if that's the hand the fractal map deals me. Since, as I said, most of Peter's advantages show up in the late game, an isolated start wouldn't prevent me from highlighting his characteristics.


Fixed; ah, for the heady days of vanilla Civ IV, when the mighty Cossacks had strength 18...

And yes, thank you for reminding me that my version of Better AI also has the previous advantages removed, much like BtS. Again, this game should provide everyone with a bit of a preview of what BtS will be like, without all the distractions of the new game features
...

I don't think that there is any need to check the map for this one.

The BetterAI Handicaps is a separate download from the Better AI download. You have to grab it and install it, it is not included automatically in the Better AI. I do think you should do it as that will be the closest to BTW. And it also just makes sense.

 

[Hero]

Just build a Scout if you want to. At least it makes the early updates more eventful.

 

[Gr8scott]

I think it would be interesting to plan on space race from the very beginning. It seems like space race is often the booby prize victory condition when the others don't pan out.

Given Peter's UB and traits, how would you play the game from the very beginning to achieve a space race victory as early as possible?

Might be cool to try although there is no back-up plan usually if you fail space race

GS

 

[kniteowl]

SE is a pretty obvious choice.

Expansive helps the SE because you're also limited by the health cap (not only the Happy cap) because if you surpass the health cap you lose surplus food which would otherwise be used to assign specialist.

Remember the SE also depends on you're starting location too, if you end up near a low food start you may have to play CE and aim for a GP Farm city instead.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think it would be interesting to plan on space race from the very beginning. It seems like space race is often the booby prize victory condition when the others don't pan out.

Given Peter's UB and traits, how would you play the game from the very beginning to achieve a space race victory as early as possible?

Might be cool to try although there is no back-up plan usually if you fail space race

GS

I usually go after space race when I get tired of moving units around for a domination win. I agree, it might be fun to try for a fast space race win, including a computers bee-line, especially since everything about Peter (but especially the UB) seems to point to that victory condition.

 

[Sisiutil]

how is 3-5 worker turns not a huge benefit(5 turns with a plains forest hill, 3 otherwise). Also if you research AG first you can help improve your land imensly. If you are going for BW first after all you can grow while building scout, then stagnate growth at size 2 until it is done then whip the worker asap for just 2 turns wasted. You do get the full hammer bonus from the whip after all. It is almost always better to just grow as normal then whip the workers instead of producing them with mines... Whip whip whip. That is where you get maximum out of the hammer bonuses. I almost never build workers or settlers without some sort of hammerboost(some mix of loads of overflow/chopping/whipping).

and yeah the hammer bonus is only +50% so 45 hammers instead of 30 on normal speed etc. With some overflow that is easy a worker in two turns by the help of one pop in the early game.

I still think the chance of popping more huts outweighs that of having several workers ultra-early. Besides not having many resources revealed, you also don't have the citizens to work all those tiles. And a hut I pop is a hut my rivals don't. Plus, as Hero said, it means I have something to do during the early rounds besides pressing Enter all the time. (Which is why I can't abide Marathon speed.)

I'll probably build a Scout first as the city grows to 2 pop, followed by a Worker.

 

[MangleMeElmo]

You should do something a little similar to what you did with Cyrus: train a lot of knights and wage a medieval war, then upgrade them all to Cossacks when you have the techs. Sorta like Immortals---->Knights from the last game.

 

[JujuLautre]

Dont' know if you saw my question in the Cyrus thread Sisiutil, so here it is: will you play with BetterAI as a mod? Or is it in your CustomAssets? Or, to ask the question differently, will we have to get BetterAI to open your save files?

 

[Porphyrius]

Considering Peter's traits and the +2 free scientists from a late UB, i think we should focus on a SE running till late and a space victory. It just seems more appropriate within an ALC purpose. I mean everybody has seen/tried cavs beelines and Cossacks are far from been an underused unit. Peters traits lend themselfs well to a more peaceful approach. Actually if the goal is really set so longterm and especially should mostly isolated start turns up early academies might prove of greater value than bulbs here and there.

As for scouts/workers priority i agree that when startin with hunting its a nice idea plus it makes for a more appealing ALC (more seen through early exploration = more to discuss). Still, its a bit early to make final decisions about that or starting technologies without knowing the starting resources dont you think.

One last thing though. I know you just love fractal maps but i'd second the notion for a more naval like map setup. Its gives a bit of variance, plus Peter real historical achievements point heavily in such a direction.

 

[TheArchduke]

The worker question depends on your ressources, so it can´t be answered now.

If you got Ivory/Gold and one or two food ressources, a worker is undebatable the best choice. Or Corn/Pigs.

Else go for a scout.

And with Peter even I go for a full SE, except for the capital ofc.

 

[oyzar]

You always go exploring first. Even without hunting you do. How about trying something different for a change? If i am around i am gonna run a sim of the start(though on epic it'll be kinda slow showing how the empire willl develop going with the difference between worker or scout first(then either scout/warrior second or worker second) followed by settler or if the start dictates something else we will build that ofc...

 

[Killroyan]

From my game last night I can tell that cosacks definitely are incredible strong. I was Lizzie and was way ahead of everybody when Cathy got cossacks and produced about 50 of them!!! in no time. Even though my border cities were guarded by lots of riflemen they were eaten like it was nothing. In the open cossacks mostly beat my CII riflemen also. Pretty frustrating I can tell you. Cavalry against them is not an option. Even a CIV cavalry has low odds against these cossacks. If you beeline to cossacks then there is nothing that can stop you in that age.

I am very curious about the better AI (we know the AI needs it against you) and will love to see another full SE economy going again. Now post the starting shot

 

[MangleMeElmo]

^^Indeed, I'm also curious about the 'better AI' and would like Sisiutil to provide as many details as possible about how the improved AI plays the game during this next ALC.

 

[The Tyrant]

I dropped off the face of the planet for a while, but I'm back now. This is the first ALC game that I'll have followed in quite a while. Since I'm a diehard CE fanatic, I would love to see a SE game and Peter seems perfect for that. So, yes, I heartily agree with running SE if the initial conditions permit. Also, I agree with the idea of building a scout first. The possibility of snagging a free tech or two is worth the delay in building the initial worker, especially if you research BW first. The extra scout has the potential to put you further ahead than an early worker, especially if the worker has little to do.

On monarch I never shoot for the Pyramids unless I have both stone and an industrial civ. Playing as a non-industrial civ, there is just too much chance that an industrial AI will beat you to them. That would cost you many turns of production at a point in the game where the units you could have produced would be much more useful than the consolation cash you get.

Of course everyone has their own playing style, but to my way of thinking the easiest way to win almost any victory condition is by waging war. The cossack has been nerfed, but they are still worth bee-lining. Once you get them you'll have a decided advantage over anyone who is at or below your own tech level, and land is power. So, no surprise here, the warmongerer says "Get that UU as quickly as possible and make good use of it."

 

[Baldas]

I don't know about you, but I generally like to leave a few forests unchopped (especially plains forests) for the production and the health benefits, and eventually lumbermills. HOWEVER since Peter is expansive I would say get chopping! But perhaps you were going to do this anyway.

Looking forward to seeing Peter in action!

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I really like Peter the Great as a leader, his traits rock and he's an extremely powerful techer. Philo + FE/SE IMHO is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more powerful than Fin for beelining up to Cavalry, or in this case Cossacks =).

Off the bat I'd go research Bronze Working and go:
Worker > (chop)worker > (chop)worker > settler. Since you'll be building stuff off chops anyway you don't really waste time burning the turn for slavery either.

Key early wonders to grab:
Pyramids - Representation is just too good with FE/SE.
Parthenon- +50% Great Person production and Artist points very early.

I like to pop some some early great artists, and save them for later game warmaking when you might need them to to conquer culture rich city clusters. After 1/2 (maybe 3) artists then go all scientists and bulb your way up the Philosophy and Paper > Edu while researching up to Nationalism, gunpowder. Lib for either Nationalism or Mil.Trad if you can pull it off.

 

[Tarkeel]

Peter used to be my favorite leader for One-City games; especially on smaller maps he is fantastic. Now, a OCC might be too much of a variant for these series, but it's where he really shines.

Since happiness is a non-issue in a OCC, health is your only restriction after Drama, so expansive is very very good. Since you're more or less forced into a SE, Philosophical is also very handy.