1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. Mesousa

    Mesousa -8.38 -6.67

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    478
    They can? I think you mean Ceasefires.

    I agree though that the existing Axes are enough to deal with Charlie's Angels. No need to wait, or use a spy.
     
  2. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,282
    Nope. Peace treaties. I found out when I was looking for how many turns were left on the treaty in the "active" section of the diplomacy advisor. It said 4 turns left and was cancellable. So I did. The trouble is that the war is not started automatically, but you have to actually declare war.
     
  3. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2004
    Messages:
    6,026
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Anyway, now that we've moved past the AP and diplomatic victory discussion, I'm really looking forward to your usage of the Conquistadors and the Citadel. I don't know, the Citadel has always intrigued me but I've never really used it to its advantage. And I used to love the Conquistadors but now they come later but I love the Cuirassiers so this will be interesting.
     
  4. Ringwraiths

    Ringwraiths Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    24
    Hey gang, I'm a long time Civ player but I'm new to these forums. Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading these threads. After reading a few I decided to move up to Monarch and try running a specialist economy, both firsts for me. I played with Suleiman and I kicked butt. These threads have been supremely useful. You should charge a consulting fee, Sisiutil :p Keep em up!
     
  5. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    about Chuckykins ... obviously he should be wiped off the planet, and that we should be the ones to benefit from this, not anybody else. for advice about how/when to best accomplish that, consult other people. if i am to be your Military Advisor you need to drop down to Settler level. trust me the C would still stand for Challenge!!!

    actually, the whole point from pre-game is for Izzy to found Christianity and build the AP. i'm being nitpicky over words because i love this aspect, i hope this post doesn't make you feel singled out. i love this part so here's my over-enthusiasm bubbling out is all *giggle*.

    which religion(s) to spread around to which heathens, and how extensively, isn't a sure thing ;). it may change during the game, fun fun! do we want to hope Pacal (who i haven't met yet in any game) and Liz are enemies and that we can do some backstabbing/picking up spoils of their war? then we spread different religions to them. if we hope they do get along, so that we can more easily get along with both of them at the same time, then we try to spread the same religion to both of them, and adopt the mutual "siblings of the faith" one as our SR when building the AP. the AP always stays the SR of the builder, even if it changes hands and/or the owner of that city goes FR. leads to interesting implications whether going for the "fast and easy one-city-to-each and vote ourselves in" or "spread AP religion around and focus on diplomacy" type victory.

    so yeah, Liz and Pacal both have buddhist cities now. but if we decide we want to invest the effort later, we can try to encourage one to become disillusioned :mischief:. i had such fun manipulating world politics thru religion in some vanilla/warlords games, it could already be effective and machiavellian (is that the word i'm looking for?). add in the AP and BtS gives you some new positive options and more pitfalls/dangers to watch out for in that area. even more ways to try to influence their religious faith (spies). exxxxxxxxcellent!
     
  6. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2007
    Messages:
    274
    Not to rain on yourr parade, but it's all part of the same sentence and therefore happening at the same time. Christianity was chosen, per pre-game discussion, as the AP religion because that's Izzy and is set in stone.
     
  7. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,141
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    :confused: I'm baffled - both you and Scarredroman say Lizzy has Buddhism, but I can't for the life of me see where.... Am I losing the plot here?

    As for the Christianity bit, if we do go for it purely for reasons of flavour we'll be putting ourselves in a tricky situation diplomatically (especially if Lizzy goes Buddhist) - we're going to have trouble making friends and could end up hated by everyone. A lot of players say diplomacy is the only thing they consider when choosing a religion, and we'd be ignoring it altogether.

    It wouldn't be a terrible play if going for a fully cheesesome AP victory, but it'll mean we need to keep a very strong military (or getting dogpiled could be a real danger), and probably to rely on our own efforts (or espionage) to work through the tech-tree (since trading opportunities could be non-existent).

    We could, of course, switch religions once the AP is built, but that would go against the very reason for building a Christian AP in the first place. ;)
     
  8. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,457
    Yeah, the AI always switches to a religion if it has a city with one. The only way Elizabeth wouldn't have a state religion is if she was in Free Religion, which she obviously isn't. So I don't think she has any cities with religion yet.

    Bh
     
  9. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,141
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage
    That's my experience too. In fact it's exactly why I would send the Confucian missionary to London now, rather than waiting 'til we can build another one later on - so long as it arrived before any other religion spread to her, she'd surely convert to Confucianism, and would probably stay that way 'til the end of the game (not long in her case...).

    Oh well, I guess it's academic anyway, since Sis has already settled on a different plan. :deadhorse:

    ps. Am I the only one who finds the deadhorse animation a little... uh... disturbing? :huh:
     
  10. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Round 4: 290 BC to 5 BC, Part 1

    I started the round all hyped by the idea of using a Spy to put Vienna in revolt and get rid of its cultural defense bonus. Alas, when I checked the espionage screen, I discovered that it was not to be:



    It would have taken me well over 20 turns, while putting research completely on hold, just to get enough espionage points versus Charlie to accomplish a revolt. I didn't want to wait that long before finishing him off, and I also didn't want to put research on hold that long. So much for that idea. So instead of Spies, I built a couple of Archers in Madrid and Barcelona so their Axemen could join the fun in Vienna.

    Speaking of research, as suggested, I changed mine:



    Charlemagne was not willing to trade it--no surprise there. And no one else had it by the time I finished it.

    Another thing I did right off the bat was sending the Confucian missionary to Madrid so I could build another temple there and run another priest specialist. I want to get those shrines up and running ASAP to help out my economy.

    While I waited for the peace treaty with the Holy Roman Empire to expire, I took out that barb city on my southwest coast:



    It cost me 3 Axemen, which was unfortunate and hardly worth the 29 gold, but I did get some XPs for my other units and I removed a potential annoyance.

    In 155 BC, things started to come together:



    The next thing to do was to change civics:



    Then I woke up my Great Prophet and used him to Lightbulb Theology:





    ...thus enabling building the Apostolic Palace and founding Christianity. And look where the holy city for that religion wound up:



    Yes, Aachen is now a double holy city! What an awesome capital/shrine/Wall Street city that's going to be. It was worth all those Axemen, may they rest in virtual peace. If the game lasts into the corporation era, I hope to have some fun with those as well--this would also make one heckuva headquarters city.

    By the way, what other national wonder besides Wall Street should go in this city?

    Meanwhile, the neighbours were getting pushy:



    I caved, even though that's a pretty darned expensive tech to be demanding. But I've been very cavalier about diplomacy in some off-line games lately, and it's come back to haunt me. I also remember treating Toku badly in the Peter game when I should have been courting his good opinion.

    A good-news random event occurred:



    The silver appeared on that tundra hill NE of Prague. Good thing I kept that city instead of razing it. I went the cheaper route of not mining or roading the tile for gold. With the sorry state of my economy, I wanted to reserve as much gold as I could. Still, getting silver is very good news, don't you think? It should mean that Prague can pay for itself.

    My earlier instinct about letting the AI research Monarchy proved correct:



    Yes, Liz converted to Buddhism. We'll need to think about our religious spread and adoption strategy very carefully.

    After that tech trade, another civics change was in order:



    Maybe it's not as powerful in BtS as it used to be, but I still like the Spiritual trait a lot.

    Charlemagne had built his iron mine next to Vienna, which meant that I couldn't afford to put off the inevitable any longer. I had a couple of Swordsmen in my stack now and two more on the way, so I felt confident that I could finish off the HRE.



    As I moved my units into position, Sitting Bull showed up, apparently deciding that what was good for Pacal was good for him too:



    At least he was only asking for a cheap tech I don't mind parting with.

    Anyway, how did Charlemagne's last waltz in Vienna go? Stay tuned--the next post will reveal all.
     
  11. OTAKUjbski

    OTAKUjbski TK421

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,511
    Location:
    not at my post
    Tuned in. :)
     
  12. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Round 4: 290 BC to 5 BC, Part 2:

    I parked my stack on Vienna's iron mine to prevent Charlemagne from accessing its benefits for production, let alone to produce a strong unit like an Axeman or a Swordsman. It also meant I didn't have to pillage it and then rebuild it later. I had a Settler with the stack that could found a city 1S of Vienna's location as soon as the battle was done. I began by sacrificing some of my Axemen:



    Yeesh. Lousy odds. Fortunately, Vienna only had 3 protective Archers defending it. One other was out scouting, and the one you see in the woods north of the city was protecting a Worker. I would have moved the Archer into the city if it was me, but I suppose Charlemagne was desperately trying to chop that forest to build another city defender.

    The first few attacks went predictably, which is to say, one lost unit after another:









    4 Axemen gone against three Archers. One of the Axe attacks failed to do any damage whatsoever. However, the other three attacks accomplished their goal, which was to damage the defenders. My next Axeman wasn't receiving much better odds:



    The Swordsmen's odds weren't much better, as I recall. I was holding them in reserve if the defenders kept proving as tough as they had been before.

    Fortunately, my luck in this game continues to hold. Thus far, as soon as the odds are even slightly in my favour, I start winning battles. The Axe above won his fight. It was now time to throw the two Swordsmen into the fray so they could gain some valuable experience (and so that may remaining Axemen could be saved for a rainy day):





    And as a result, Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire are no more, and I have my first Great General, whom I combined with a Chariot for my M*A*S*H unit.



    I razed Vienna and immediately founded another city 1S of its location.



    Seville will have a fight on its hands for that second gold mine. Then again, if I take out Elizabeth soon, which is a distinct possibility, it's a moot point. Either way, I'll soon have silver and gold to boost the happiness caps in my cities, which are already rising thanks to HR.

    I played one more turn and then ended the round. The saved game file is below, a state-of-the-world post will follow.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    The State of the World, 5 BC

    Let's start by looking at the map. First off, a view of Spain as it exists thus far:



    I was very happy to found Seville right after Vienna's fall to cut off Elizabeth's expansion in my direction. I'm hoping she'll expand south instead of east or north and clear some of that jungle.

    Here's a look at what I know of the continent thus far:



    Keep in mind that because of the peculiarities of the flying camera view, Pacal's southernmost resources don't show up.

    Heres a slightly similar view of the continent, but with the resource indicators removed so as to better see the cities and terrain:



    I'm sending my Woodsman II Warrior over to explore that southwestern spur of the continent. It's a very interesting landmass, just the sort of thing I've come to expect from a fractal map. There appears to be plenty of room in the middle of the continent for all of us to expand into peacefully. Like it'll play out that way. Hah!

    Can't we all just get along?

    NO!!

    Liz is quite cramped. There's better land to the south, but I may have to hurry to get cities in the northwest and south as we had planned, or she may beat me there. Then again, I could let her do that and take the cities from her later. Discuss.

    Domestic Advisor:



    Yep, the Apostolic Palace build has begun in Aachen. It looks like it's going to take a long time, but keep in mind that I have the future capital of Spain focusing on growth and cottage tiles. I'm also moving my Workers over there to start chopping.

    I used the free Christian Missionary in Madrid to once again enabled the build of yet another Temple. If I follow that build with a Lighthouse I should be able to run 3 priests and speed up the arrival of the next Great Prophet. As you can see by my lackluster economic performance, I could really use those shrines!

    Do you think Madrid should be the GP farm? With the lake rather than rivers, it seems better suited to farming rather than cottaging. Though I did lay down a couple of cottages--probably evidence of panic more than clear thinking. That's why it's good to pause like this and think things through carefully.

    Civics:



    Yep, I'm now running my early game favourites, HR and OR.

    Military Advisor:



    I think I'm going to need several more Workers. I didn't capture as many from Charlie as I would have liked.

    Religious Advisor:



    So I need to spread Buddhism to three cities to take advantage of OR. Now what is the plan here? As I understand it, I should leave Liz as a Buddhist but work at spreading Christianity both to my own cities and to Pacal and Sitting Bull. Then I convert to Christianity before the AP is built and urge Pacal and SB to do the same. Then we can all dog-pole poor, heathen Liz. Or is there a better way?

    Power:



    Heh. You can see where I captured each of Charlemagne's three cities. I'm tied for power with Liz and Pacal for now, and both are pleased thanks to our shared religion, so I think I can focus on non-military builds for a while.

    Espionage vis-a-vis Liz:



    And vis-a-vis Pacal:



    I also don't have enough EP on Sitting Bull to do anything. This, along with the sorry economic state I'm in, indicates that courthouses should be a priority in the next round. A big priority, especially since Liz and Pacal can now build them and gain their espionage benefits as well.

    The Foreign Advisor, Relations:



    The "glance". (Which is backwards, don't you think? The above view is your diplomatic relations at a glance; below is an in-depth look. Whatever...)




    Active trade deals:



    I don't really need those resources from Sitting Bull and Pacal, but I thought I'd start accruing a diplomatic bonus from them for "supplying us with resources". Since the resources I'm trading away aren't happiness resources, I'm not benefiting potential rivals too much.

    Info--trade routes and civics:



    All my trade routes are with the Native Americans; since we're separated by water, apparently they're more lucrative. I'm researching Currency, and once it's done, I should gain trade routes with Liz and with Pacal. I'm looking forward to it!

    Techs:



    Thus far I'm the tech leader, though it looks like Liz may be going after the Great Library. She could build the Statue of Zeus, too--I hate going up against an enemy who has that thing! At first I thought if you captured the SofZ city the extra war weariness it created would go away, but no, that's not how it works! All that +200% WW stays, and you just accrue it at the normal rate once you pry the Statue from their grasp.

    Should I be teching towards the Great Library next? Or towards Construction? I suppose it depends on what we decide to do with Elizabeth. Also, should I be pursuing REX, founding all those cities we talked about, or should I solidify what I have and plan on taking Liz's cities?

    Decisions, decisions...

    At any rate, Isabella is pleased. The heretic is dead. Although, since we're now Buddhists too, he wasn't really a heretic. Well, he's dead and we're in the lead and that's all that matters. She's also quite pleased about all those religions we've founded. Really, she collects faiths the way other women collect shoes. I've warned her that means that the two remaining civs we haven't met are Jewish chums, but she just waves her hand in that regal, dismissive way of hers whenever I bring it up.

    Anyway, I have time to play more regularly, so the gap we had between the previous round and this one shouldn't happen again. A good thing, too. Isabella can pack away tapas like there's no tomorrow, and it's costing me an arm and a leg. I don't know how she does it while keeping that girlish figure of hers. Persecuting the godless must be good exercise.
     
  14. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,657
    Location:
    Foraging in your trashcan
    Short, great round. Charlie gone, Theology discovered, AP started.

    I think the first priority is to defecit-research currency. I checked the save -- if you bump the slider to 50%, you'll finish in 18 turns and drain your gold. Cottaging Aachen, getting the Seville gold mine, and getting the silver mine online combined with popping currency should allow you to run at 50 or 60%. Courthouses on top of that should give you another 10 or 20%, and a holy shrine or two is just icing on the cake. Because you don't have a ton of cities, this economic situation is very fixable. 10-15 turns of building and whipping courthouses and workers (and then markets) should get it done.

    That frees you up to build cities to the south and southwest of Aachen. If Liz gets them, she's blocked you from the rest of the continent -- if you get them, she has to expand south into the jungle, pre-Calendar.

    As far as the AP situation is concerned, I like your spread Christianity - exclude Liz - build the Christian AP - trample Liz strategem.
     
  15. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4,141
    Location:
    A state of unquenchable rage


    In the circumstances that's pretty much what I'd do. I'll warn you, though, that it's going to take a lot of missionaries if you want to maintain complete control of the AP and have some religious buddies.

    I suspect there'll have to be at least two (maybe more) Christian cities in each civ if you want to convert them. Of course, you don't need them to be Christian to use the AP to boss them around (in fact it'll help if they're not - iirc voting memers only get 50% of the votes-per-Christian-citizen that full members get), but for long-term diplomatic reasons it would be helpful if at least one of them took Jesus into his heart.

    At the same time you'll want to prevent the excessive spread of Christianity amongst your buddies, or else you could find yourself outvoted. On top of that you'll want to make sure Lizzy doesn't go Christian, since that would prevent an AP-driven crusade against her. In both cases, a few non-Christian missionaries would be the most reliable solution.

    And don't forget that you can only have 3 missionaries of a given religion in the field/build-queue at any time, so spread Christianity to all of your own cities first - they're closer, meaning you won't have to wait to build the next missionary, and the worst case scenario is that you lose control of the palace because Pacal and SB together have more Christian subjects than you.

    (Note: If you are planning on taking the easy route to religious victory do not get anyone else to convert to Christianity - Christianise one city per civ, spam non-Christian missionaries everywhere else, beeline Optics, cover yourself in chee... er, glory. :mischief: )

    btw, I don't know what dog-poling is, but it sounds disgusting. ;)
     
  16. Mesousa

    Mesousa -8.38 -6.67

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    478
    Yep, you'll have to prioritize. I'd rate Courthouses and Missionaries higher than more cities for now. Maybe one to cut Liz off (and closed borders too, of course), but not more until your economy is stable and Christianity has been spread to all your cities, and to at least one each of your future AP comrades.
     
  17. NaZdReG

    NaZdReG Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2006
    Messages:
    553
    I don't understand why the barb city was razed.. are you planning on resettling in a slightly different direction? seemed like a decent enough spot.

    I would suggest NOT improving over the city ruins from charle.. it opens some really good events up including research boosts.. keep it around for a while and see if you get anything good.

    you need to snap up the decent sites to your south and southwest while you still can, and get courthouses up while you expand

    damn nice work sisuitil, I hope this advice is helpful

    NaZ
     
  18. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    no i think you and i are at different parades. "which religion(s) to spread around to which heathens, and how extensively, isn't a sure thing" there i'm talking about spreading religion to buddy up to folks/stir up trouble. that's fun even in warlords and vanilla, without the AP. we're gonna be christian for the AP. that doesn't in any way exclude the kind of manipulation i'm talking about. which can be fluid during the game and is hella fun diplomatically.

    seconded, i found this out yesterday :)

    that way could be lots of fun. but they all have religion now, so you have quite a few missionaries to make to get them to convert, and using spies doesn't sound like an option yet.

    i'm not sure about the 50% for voting members thing. but there are definitely benefits to having folks around that are just voting members. one example, somebody has a city close to you, you might be able to flip it culturally (and want to) but they have it piled full of troops. you can hold an AI vote on that, if the flip would be from a voting member to a full member, that's worked great for me in the past.

    fringe benefit of AP i'd never thought of: i used it today to pass OB with all members, which was my sneaky way to get to see Toku's neighborhood! way cool :)
     
  19. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I had to read this a few times to understand what you were talking about, but now I do. I've received those "ancient texts" random events before, I didn't realize they were tied in to ruins.
     
  20. patagonia

    patagonia Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,025
    Just a small suggestion, but swap to caste system.

    It's cheaper than slavery, doesn't have revolts, you should be growing those cities rather than whipping them, and running an artist for 5 turns in Seville is the quickest way to pop its borders. If you get a burning urge to whip, you can always swap back for that at no cost thanks to the spiritual trait.

    Currency makes a lot of sense as the next tech, especially with a shrine on the horizon since a market in Aachen will give that a nice boost. After that, either construction/hbr for jumbos and cats, or CS make sense to me. If Aachen is going to be the capital, Madrid will make a good GPF. Just make sure you save the forests round Aachen to get yourself a bunch of free wall street merchants once the national park becomes available. You should be running close to 100% science with shrines online so you'll waste some of the WS benefit otherwise. Seville looks like a good potential site for Oxford down the line. In the more immediate future, I'd grab the city sites you want close to Liz quickly and focus on building courthouses.

    On the subject of religions, the plan seems sound, but note Liz could well do you a big favour in that regard. You've traded her all the prerequisites for Philosophy and she shouldn't have any trouble generating a GS to bulb it and found a religion of her own. If she does, she'll almost certainly swap to Tao and get herself roundly hated by everyone else. Lastly, if you want cultural as a backup option, it's well worth considering a detour to music for the free artist and an early start on the Sistine Chapel - that's had a good makeover in BtS with an additional 5 culture for each state religion building.
     

Share This Page