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ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Both excellent points :goodjob:

    Ooh, I didn't know that. So state religion buildings can now (potentially) get +5:culture: +2:science: +2:gold: and +2:hammers: each. It's probably too many wonders for any one game (though if we were ever going to do it...), but damn that's cool.

    Nor am I. But I know that when I switch religions (or go FR) I lose a whole lot of my votes. Can anyone clear this up?
     
  2. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    Yep :smug:
    Spoiler :

    the resolutions for the AP have a iStateReligionVotePercent modifier that doubles the votes for each civ that has the AP religion as its state religion (not this does not equal being a full member)
     
  3. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    Spoiler :
    oh true! because if you defy a vote you get demoted until you vote for a resolution that passes. dang you're good!
     
  4. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    Spoiler :
    also if you build the AP and then switch state religion you still are a full member but lose the bonus votes :p
     
  5. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Thanks ori. :hatsoff:
     
  6. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    Well, things are going mostly as planed, at least as far as the AP is concerned.:goodjob:

    As for the financial troubles, lets see:

    • we got writing in 1100BC, now in 5BC we have a single library in Madrid
    • we got CoL in 1025BC, a bit over 1000 years later we have no courthouses even started.:(

    Instead we ve got many temples and running priest specialists.

    Shall this speed up GP generation? Most definitely.;)
    Shall this burden our economy? Most certainly...:mischief:

    Its not the maintenance costs that are high alone, due to no courthouses. We 're also making 35 :commerce: total from tiles/specialists. Which is very low for 5 cities, even 5 cities totalling a mere 21 population.

    Expanding presumes allowing cities to grow and dediacating a few to mostly :commerce:. The 15 :traderoute: seems fine and mostly doubling it via Currency would help alleviate the problem, but develop cities properly as well.:D

    I also see chopping with no Maths this late.:(

    Regardless i'd still try to block Lizzie's South with 1-2 cities. And the barb city amidst the jungle looks a promising target.


    As for ganging up on Lizzie, she is closer and has the most dangarous traits, so go for it. Our 'allies' need be at least voting members and Lzzie not a full member. Still we have to wait Pacal to expand closer. And i doubt SBull will be much help, unless he gains foothold on the continent.
     
  7. RockTheCazbah87

    RockTheCazbah87 Pacal's pal

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    I'm in agreement here. You aren't looking to attack Liz anytime soon (well you didnt say so if you are) and Caste System's a lot cheaper. A better peacetime civic IMO :)
     
  8. NaZdReG

    NaZdReG Warmonger

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    porphy,

    once a shrine is up that should offset the costs enough to make up for it. combined now with a little bit of REX and some infrastructure he should be well established for the midgame

    NaZ
     
  9. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    After the courthouses and markets are whipped, then Caste System.

    Isabella needs to vent her anger on someone, after all. :devil:
     
  10. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    I've had a closer look at the save, and I've got to say that combining a religious path with early warfare has left our economy in a dreadful state at this stage of the game. War against Charlie has gained us some excellent sites, which will be well worth the effort in the long-term. But the cost has been that we lack any well-developed cities right now, thanks to all the military builds and priest turns taking the place of workers, buildings and cottage turns.

    The Oracle and the GP-lightbulb have given us a deceptively weak position research-wise. Yes, we have a tech-lead. But I don't see that lasting very long at our present rate (15 :science: per turn is stone age teching).

    A shrine will help a lot (that's about 13-15 turns away by my reckoning) - Buddhism looks to be the only choice for that (absolutely not Christianity!!). So I'd say stick with the Prophet farming in Madrid til then.

    Elsewhere, working the gold and silver would help a lot, but at the cost of killing growth in their respective cities, whilst Aachen isn't going to give us much more commerce while it's working on the AP. With Madrid prophet farming, that leaves only Barcelona - I'd say stop working the mines and either run scientists or merchants to help us get Currency (which, in concert with the shrine, should put us back in the black).

    Build-wise, courthouses are vital right now - we're losing more in maintenance than we're getting in research. I can see why you're going for a lighthouse in Barcelona, and I guess it's too late to change now, but I think that's been a mistake when there's only one coastal tile worth working. And what's with the barracks in Prague? Do we really need any more troops at this stage?

    And for Seville, I'd echo patagonia's point about running artists - monuments may not be obsolete at this time, but Caste System renders them kind of pointless.

    For all that, I've got to say: Sis, thus far you've pulled off an unconventional start with some aplomb. Early wars and religious beelines are both potentially very strong strategies, but to manage both at once is most impressive. Now, however, it's time to beat our swords into ploughshares, and swap our crusading zeal for a protestant work ethic.
     
  11. sveusb

    sveusb Chieftain

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    Note: If you wanted to finish the HRE without facing the defense bonus for culture, "foment unhappiness" was the espionage mission to use. The spy mission "support city revolt" removes the cultural defense and does damage to the units in the city. The price for missions decrease if a spy stays in an opponents city for a while.
     
  12. carl corey

    carl corey Deity

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    To my knowledge that is incorrect. Forment unhappiness just gives the city a number of unhappy faces. It doesn't do anything to cultural defenses.
     
  13. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Warlord

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    Sitting Bull is Hindu, so it may be possible to arrange mischief with him against Lizzy and Pacal, though it woould mean switching to Hinduism to do it.

    Lizzy has Aesthetics and will not trade it. That means she's going for at least one of the Wonders or all three. Hastings at pop 1 could be the only one prodcing anything and is my candidate for building settlers, since there seems to be no obstacle to its growing larger.

    I'd interrupt the AP building to produce a Budhist missionary to send to Madrid for a fourth temple and extra priestly citizen.

    The next GP could add Islam to the list of religions and a fifth temple in Madrid.
     
  14. Chrispy

    Chrispy Warlord

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    I agree with the comments that if you can save some forests around Aachen, the National Park makes the most sense to add on some free merchants to the shrines and flood plain cottages. If the forests are used for the Apostolic Palace, I'd put Oxford there.
    Madrid: National Epic. Did you put Moai here? I saw mention of it, but I don't think it happened. If not, Oxford here?
    Aachen: Wall Street + National Park or Wall Street + Oxford
    Seville: Oxford?

    Moai can go in the fish/fur/deer city or in Barcelona.
    Hermitage needs to be saved in case the cultural route is chosen.

    The one thing I'm not sure about is which city will be the big production center. It could be Barcelona at this point (and get Buddhism there for the production bonus), but maybe another city will step up for that. If Barcelona will be the production center, then Moai might make sense there.

    At this point, cultural seems like the best backup plan to the religious victory. 4 religions and their shrines are already in the boarders. I agree with heading for Music for the buffed up Sistine Chapel. It used to be that Free Religion was a good way to go for cultural, but if you can build Sistine you need to keep a religion for the cultural bonuses.

    I haven't seen any mention of Metal Casting either. With gold and silver now, forges will be a big help to the happy cap. And on the happy cap: you have Monarchy, so take a worker and get the riverside wine online to help that as well.
     
  15. Hellspark

    Hellspark Chieftain

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    With Isabella there is NO other way. We cannot pass up this opportunity for the Spanish Inquisition and Conquistador. If the heathen godless savages will not convert to Christianity "Without The Sword" (WTS). Then the lord :jesus: demands our obedience to act as the Sheppard of his world and cull the unworthy from the flocks of this earth so that his word and the one true faith be truly spread. Least WE burn in HELL for eternity.

    Amen, praise the lord and pass the ammunition.
     
  16. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Excellents play. A few comemnts, I am sure covered by others
    1) Finish the AP is top priority. There are still the judaist leaders out there who could also bulb theology and build it faster (like in their original capital which may likely have more production than Archan, and perhaps they could be industrial (Ramses and HC are possibilities). I am pretty sure Isabella would be displeased if you miss it.

    2) Prioritize rebuilding the economy, courthouses and currency. The EPs are not really that essential this early unless you really have ticked off neighbors (you sort of killed the only one who was). Sitting Bull is the military threat and he's pretty far away, but I would not ignore some naval support.

    3) Liz I think needs to be taken out, sometime between now and before rifling. I suggest showing off those UUs/Ubs of Isabella on the English, in the meantime let Liz clear out those jungles for you.

    4) Pacal is the best to get a holy alignment with. Sitting Bull you cannot trust (someone described him as a mini-Monty and I sort of agree), so plan to get a few of his cities with your religion. So my suggestion is to leverage the religion Isabella like into pacals lands, and keep Liz and Sitting Bull sepate from yourselves and Liz.
     
  17. Scaphism

    Scaphism Boondoggle

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    I agree with a switch to Caste System. At first I chafed with the changes to Slavery (higher maintenance, possible revolts when Pop > 4) but overall I think it's a change for the better. Of course that also makes Spiritual leaders more attractive early on.

    At this point I would be in Caste System consistently unless you are going to whip a: Courthouse/Granary/Harbor/Temple/Worker/Military (with Theocracy).

    Prague is shaping up to be quite a decent city. Grassland Cows, Grassland Horses, 3 Grassland Spices and a Silver Tundra Hill. For the upcoming portion of the game that's respectable production with decent commerce and enough food to work its good tiles.

    This is definitely the time for the Economic Recovery phase. Someone above suggested using the next GP to bulb Divine Right/Islam - I'd recommend the Buddist Shrine without question.
    Metal Casting will have to wait as well - both the research cost and production cost of forges is too high. While Organized Religion + Hereditary Rule and Forges + Gold/Silver/Gems stack, I've found it usually too difficult to get both going early.

    I don't really know what Sitting Bull's personality is like so I'll defer to others who have run into him more often than I. Sisiutil is in a good position diplomatically though - his power rating is comparable to his neighbors and he can muster a good army with two promotions if needed. Since you have access Theocracy I'd say using the Great General on a MASH unit was definitely the right call. You've given tribute to your two "nearby but not close borders tensions" neighbors so you should be on a decent footing with them, Particularly with Pacal.

    If Lizzie gets ticked of with you, no big deal although it would be preferable if she started settling in the jungle rather fighting now or moving East. If you get in a fight with Lizzie now it wouldn't hurt tremendously but it would give Pacal and Sitting Bull an even longer window to expand peacefully.

    With that in mind you may want to try for one more city to block off your portion of the map and encourage Lizzy to head South. I think that will be one of the big decisions of the coming round - can you afford another distant city or will you be better off improving the 5 you do have. Though 5 cities before 1 AD is a pretty good place to be in.

    Getting a workboat over to Sitting Bull would be a good idea so you can see if he's cramped for space and itching to expand at Lizzy's expense, or if he's going to go nuts with a lot of fertile land to develop unchecked.
     
  18. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Warlord

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    After he's bulbed Divine Right with the next GP, Sisiutil can use the one after to bulb Civil Service and switch to Caste System.
     
  19. RockTheCazbah87

    RockTheCazbah87 Pacal's pal

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    Code of Laws is the tech that makes Caste System available, if that's what you meant. If you meant that he can swap to CS when he gets Civil Service, then my bad. :crazyeye:
     
  20. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    He likes to found religions and expand. He is also a bit of a diplomatic bully and loves asking for tribute. I wouldn't call him a backstabber, though. IIRC, he gives a lot of bonus diplo points for sharing the same faith. He could be a useful attack dog like Monty, if we could get him to accept the One True Faith, whichever one that is at the moment. ;)

    I'm curious to see how the peaceful expansion period shakes out.
     

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