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ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    open your adblock plus preferences and add a filter called
    Code:
    @@|http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/
    this will allow his pictures to come through adblock without having to disable it every time ;)
     
  2. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    Let me make sure I understand. You're saying that when his slider was at breakeven 20%, that was the time to whip out more swords and axes and attack England? With no catapults? And where does he have time to build the massive army of missionaries for the "Gandhi income" while he's at total war with Liz and having to replace massive loss from overcoming cultural defense with no siege? Put another way, do you see Gandhi dominating his neighbors with antiquated troops at the same time he's going missionary-crazy all the while teching like mad?

    And then there's the problem of falling so far behind in Tech (from flatlining the slider to wage a losing war against Lizzie) that Financial Pacal will completely outstrip him.

    You act like we're on some sort of AP clock and assume that Pacal will run away with it. He hasn't switched religions yet, and the voting last time was a joke ... Pacal had one or two Christian cities, max. He appears uninterested in spreading the religion at this point.

    Here's an idea, Scarred: go back and load Sisiutil's save from the round before last and start a shadow game thread and show us how it's done. Post the screenshots that have you taking out Liz with swords and axes (attacking right away, remember?), while keeping tech pace with Pacal. Please, educate this "dud."
     
  3. carl corey

    carl corey Chieftain

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    About the AP: I've seen the AIs not spread the AP religion when they're not in any danger from it. It's not a given that Pacal will spread it like crazy. We'll just have to deal with it when the time comes.
     
  4. sneaky

    sneaky Chieftain

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    Actually it still doesn't work for me. :(
     
  5. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    By the way, I posted a thread to get an answer to my question: "must vassals vote for you in the AP/UN?"

    The responses presently are yes, but that they may have an option to vote for themselves and/or they must like you. I am trying to get more clarification on this.

    So, if it works like I hope it does ...

    1. Spain attacks and vassalizes England.
    2. Spain sends massive army of Christian (and other Shrine religion) missionaries to England to raise income (to offset Vassal maintenance costs) and AP voting power.
    3. Izzy gradually improves relations with Liz by going to war, sharing religion, and making gifts here and there.
    4. Rinse and repeat with Pacal.
    5. Rinse and repeat with Sitting Bull.
     
  6. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe I committed the faux pas.

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    Good plan, but it might not be solely up to Izzy. Remember Brennus is out there with a different religion as well as a yet to be named civ. In my experience Brennus isn't too friendly with neighbours who pray differently and might end up pursuing his own vassaling.
     
  7. Gwil

    Gwil Chieftain

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    I dunno if anyones mentioned it but you need Horseback Riding to use War Elephants in BtS. Imagine the shock I got when I got ready to steamroll Caesar and Cyrus in a game yesterday with my war elephants after beelining Construction and.... boom, I needed HB Riding.

    Ass :(
     
  8. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    :hmm:
    Spoiler I don't want to clutter this thread with tech support so look in this spoiler :p :

    does it look like this:

    i.e. is the rule in the exception rules list and has a green dot at its side?
    It does work just fine for me this way...
    Edit: oh and did you restart the browser or click on apply?
     
  9. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    i72 is stable? or should I use i\d+.photo.... instead?
     
  10. ori

    ori Repair Guy Super Moderator

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    I find that sisiutil's pictures are all on i72 - though I only checked it in a couple of ALC's - I think it is stable since the albums of registered users tend to be kept on one server by photobucket, but of course that might be shifted around if photobucket needs more space ;)
     
  11. Florian

    Florian Chieftain

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    Sisiutil,
    When I read that, I thought to myself, is that a Leonard Cohen reference? Could it be? And then, lo and behold, your next update opened with a quotation from the song. Very nice. Shows sophistication and good taste, like your writing style and sense of humor.

    ...Now I'm humming it all over the office.
     
  12. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I did the same thing, don't feel so bad.
     
  13. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    First off, RE: HBR, Construction, and War Elephants. I did not realize that. No wonder I haven't started building WEs. Thanks!

    I want to talk about city priorities and specialization a bit, since expansion will be the focus of the next round.



    Not much has changed since OTAKUjbski created this dotmap, mainly because I did not found any more cities aside from the purple double gold city in the far west. English expansion has made the far NW cyan city unlikely; Hastings is 1W of the horses there (yes, 1 tile from the coast :rolleyes:). A fishing village 1SE of the crabs may come later but is a low priority at the moment.

    Elizabeth also, conveniently, founded Coventry right smack-dab on the black spot in the mid-SW. The blue and red locations nearby are both open.

    In terms of priority, then, I think Blue is #1 otherwise Liz will claim it. It will give me a source of fish, which I currently lack, as well as additional sources of horses and ivory. I also want to found it soon so that Coventry's cultural borders don't have time to overwhelm some of its tiles. Finally, I am thinking that this should, perhaps, be the Heroic Epic city despite the 2 desert tiles. It will have decent production and food and will be close to the action; it can also produce both land and naval units. I also don't have a better candidate. I am wondering if I should halt the build of the Moai Statues in Madrid and save them for this city instead. I usually like to combine the statues with the HE. I don't like shifting production like that, but at least I get gold to compensate for not finishing a wonder.

    (This is why I want to have this discussion--I don't want to waste hammers building national wonders where they don't really belong.)

    The only real alternative I can see to making blue the HE city is to give Madrid that honour. The problem with that is two-fold: First, it's quite far from where the fighting's going to be; second, it means I need a GP farm somewhere else. I don't see an obvious alternate candidate for that city specialization on this map. However, it means no hammers thus far expended towards the MS would be wasted.

    After blue city will come ochre in the far north. This will claim fur, fish, and deer. Not a spectacular city by any means, but it will claim those resources and cut off Liz from expanding there.

    Blue and ochre are top priorities to cut off Liz' expansion and to claim resources. After that we're on to backfill cities.

    Of those, I think red comes next. There's a chance Liz or even Pacal might try to sneak a Settler over there, and that's going to be a very good commerce city.

    I think gold city, on top of the wine, comes after red. This will also claim the corn tile and lift my reliance on Sitting Bull for that resource. With the 2 flood plains and some grassland, this also seems destined to be a commerce city. On the other hand, I'll have several other good to great commerce cities, and this is the only alternative around for a GP farm. Though it wouldn't be a spectacular one, it would be sufficient. And it has 5 forests that could be preserved for the same number of free specialists from the National Park. That would allow Madrid to become the HE city and to therefore keep building the MS. Might I remind you that Madrid has very good production?

    Green city is next. It has the iron mine for production and several grassland tiles for cottages. A cash cow, as was pointed out earlier.

    Brown and indigo are next and are lower priorities as neither claims any resources the other cities don't already give me, and in fact, most of their resources are already within my cultural boundaries. A final possible city is the NW crab fishing village I mentioned earlier.

    As for specialization, I think we've agreed that Madrid will be the GP farm. Researching or tech trading through Aesthetics to Literature for National Epic will be required.

    Aachen is obviously the financial/research city as well as the capital. Oxford and, later, Wall Street will go here.

    Ironworks (hey, it pays to think ahead) will, I think, go in London, since it's right on a river and has several more river tiles nearby for watermills. Yes, London will be mine. Spain doesn't need an armada this time. :devil:

    So the main decisions here are the locations of the HE and GP farm, I think. Any other insights are, of course, welcome.
     
  14. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    @Sisiutil:

    Another excellent round, nailing the AP in the face of what may well have been serious competition from abroad (note the message at the top of the second screenie: another prophet born in a faraway land - for a moment I was genuinely worried), and putting the economy back on a strong footing. :goodjob:

    I can't check the save right now, but from what I can see so far, I'd say slobberinbear is on the right track.

    *sigh*

    I make no claim to being any kind of expert, and could certainly be accused of offering 'dud' advice on occasion (the whole 'consider disbanding troops' bit, for example).

    But neither I nor slobberinbear (whose advice is rarely, if ever, less than entirely sound imo) have any real power over Sisiutil's choices. We, like everyone else who participates in the ALCs, make suggestions which Sis can either follow or ignore.

    If war was indeed the only right course of action at that point, the real failure was yours - you failed to make the case for what you knew to be best, despite having only us ill-informed 'duds' to argue against.

    For all I know you may be a god-like master of civ. But that's of little value here if you can't give a convincing explanation of why we should follow your advice.

    And don't forget: this is Monarch, not Deity - AI civs are much less fearsome on this level than you seem to assume.
     
  15. patagonia

    patagonia Chieftain

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    That used to be true in Vanilla, where there were rounding errors that meant you brought in more total gold+beakers running at 100% tax to build up a treasury and then 100% research to pick up the tech. I was under the impression they'd largely fixed that in Warlords/BtS (cities now produce fractions of a coin/beaker, it's only the overall total that gets rounded).

    Right now, peaceful expansion seems like the easiest option. Getting an army for Liz out of 5 cities will take a lot of whipping which will ultimately be counter-productive considering an early AP win is the goal. Better to settle some high-food cities nearby and grow them quickly while seeking the final civ in the jigsaw. Assuming you make them Christian, the best 2 initial builds will always be granary followed by Christian temple for the hammers, happy and culture bonus and they're both cheap for Isabella which is convenient. In terms of economy, hybrid is probably the way forward since you'll want high food for rapid growth to get you the population to win the vote. Once you hit bureaucracy, running a merchant or two in smaller cities and raising the slider to benefit Aachen's commerce will probably net you more beakers/turn than having a few cottages everywhere.

    Pacal building the SoZ is actually a bonus, since there's no need to take him out to win by AP, culture, UN or space. Had a civ you've a prospect of warring against built it, that could be a problem, but a useful ally doing so is nothing to fear.

    As for prophet 3, the Church of the Nativity will be a sound investment if you're planning on converting Pacal and Sitting Bull. If not, bulbing him for most of DR makes sense only if you intend to build the Spiral Minaret.

    And finally...
    Don't forget to synchronise unit and building builds between your major cities where possible so that you can maximize the benefits of OR and theocracy. The big 4 should grow now, but if you're really keen on civics-related MM, spending a few turns in OR and slavery to whip a couple of part-built buildings in newer cities would also be beneficial.
     
  16. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    If you save it for last, it probably won't be available, since it is outside of your iron curtain against Liz. Unless Prague and/or "ochre" manage to extend their cultural borders that far, but that would be three border pops beyond the fat cross for Prague, or two for "ochre". Either take it early, or expect that Liz will already have put something in that area by the time you get all of the other cities settled.

    This isn't to say that you need to settle it early. As you said, it's a low priority, so you could (and possibly should) just forget about it. It's not a real problem if Liz settles there anyway, since you're planning on a Liz -> Iz transfer of assets once the settling is done anyway.

    Other than that minor detail, your plan looks pretty sound to me.

    Zienth
     
  17. petey

    petey Chieftain

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    If you want to take advantage of the UB, you should probably tech Engineering next and build some castles and city raider trebs for the war with England.
     
  18. Cornhog

    Cornhog Chieftain

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    This isn't my "fight," but I was also advising Sisiutil to take over England. It doesn't really matter either way because Sisiutil is good enough to win regardless. So, I'm not sure either choice could be considered a "dud." However, I can show you my save where I've taken out England and more by the point Sisi is at now - without catapults.

    (Actually, I can send you the final save and you can watch the replay. I didn't save as often as I should have :blush:)

    I could tell you how I did it, but since Sisiutil is still playing, I'll keep quiet for now. It's nothing special, but I don't wanna accidentally spoil his game. Anyway, the point is: Both strategies work just fine. Well, Sisiutil's strategy isn't over, but I'm sure it'll work fine as well :)
     
  19. Tyrant Roger

    Tyrant Roger Chieftain

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    If you are pursuing an AP religious victory, then others have outlined how you might best proceed. But if you are still interested in also pursuing a cultural victory [after an AP victory or not] it is not too soon to be thinking about which three cities you plan to go legendary, which wonders you will pursue and where and so on. If you are going into space, of course, you have lots of time to decide later how best to do that.
     
  20. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Chieftain

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    Slobberinbear and Winston Hughes are full of advice. They assumed I called them duds. I described their advice as dud. They've assumed that attacking England would be impossible without catapults due to the cultural bonus. As cornhog's post showed, it is possible.

    Sisiutil has chosen a different path. They are not just offering advice, two amongst many. In other ALC games, Sisiutil has followed their advice consistently.

    Sisiutil is good enough to win from the current position. Good luck in getting all those cities built.
     

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