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ALC Game 18: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    Well, i didnt participate in that "fight" either. But i'd like to contribute what my considerable warmongering experience dictates:

    A war immidiently would have plenty of margin to be succesful so long as it remained mostly swords vs archers. It might actually prove to be more :hammers: efficient than the one vs Charly.;)
    On the other hand ofcourse i have to admit it wasnt really necessary, wich why i suggested focusing on economy with expansion as a sidekick. There was (still partly is) land to expand, and unlike higher difficulties ( which may be Scarredroman's basis for comparison ) a financial AI doesnt skyrocket that early or even simply develops land/cities faster than the human.:D

    The order you declare for settling looks mostly fine to me, Sis. The only thing i'd add is if you plan to take on Lizzy, you shoul aim max 4 extra cities. Blue, ochre, gold nad green seem fine.
    Ofcourse while you dont trully need the NW crab village, it would deny Lizzy horses. Not that if you plan to go elephs its a major concern, but...
    Oh, remember to move the capital too.

    I dont like the idea of oxford AND wall street in one city. A GP farm specializing on scientists looks better for oxford. Unless ofcourse you plan to keep going for prophet eternally to stay in character...:D
    GP farms cities sites are harder to get than production sites, so i'd put HE in the blue city. Hope you haven't gone to far on MS.

    As for long term goals i stand hesitant to suggest much...
    What is a " "honorable" AP win " anyhow? Christianity aimed as the most spread religion, as the state religion of everyone, spread in all cities (to make essentially an early UN victory)? I mean the criteria is entirely subjective and arbitrary.:confused:

    Based on my personal experience, religious victories are very easy to achieve even on the top difficulty. The only way i can think of to make things more intresting without a arbitrary criteria is to play with many opponents. Like 15-18, especially on conentrated maps. Ofcource even then, most one has to do is survive a while longer...

    Nomatter, if the plan includes war we should definitely aim to get whatever use we can out of the UU/UB. Any domination/diplomatic victory while waging "holy wars" feels fine to me.:D
    I dont think much of a culture victory though, just cause we pooled many religions. There are better leaders to showcase that, especially in BTS where corporation induced :culture: can be quite decisive.
     
  2. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    The consensus on the other thread is that Vassals are required to vote for you in elections/victory, but not neccessarily for other resolutions. I have no hard confirmation, but it would seem to indicate that a Vassalize-then-convert-the-infidels strategy would be an "in-character," workable, non-cheesy way to get either domination or AP/diplomatic wins.

    As far as Scared's comments go, it's a moot point now. The tanking economy and available land for peaceful REXing seemed a better option to me, and apparently to Sisiutil, and so there you have it. He's the boss here; we in the peanut gallery just get to act like we matter. :p
     
  3. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    Round 6: 460 AD to 1300 AD

    The focus of this round was expansion.

    The expansion had three long-term purposes. First of all, the additional cities would, as they grew and built infrastructure, become engines of the Spanish economy. Second, they would provide training facilities for a military build-up. Third, they would provide the population base to dominate the AP votes.

    First, though, I kept exploring. As recommended, I pressed on through Brennus' territory at the expense of the fragile peace between us:



    I checked the tech screen; Brennus did not yet have Metal Casting, so the only threat to my Galley was other Galleys, and I suspected (or was that hoped?) he wouldn't have many of those.

    Meanwhile, in spite of increasing tensions, Elizabeth, not Pacal, was my main tech trading partner in this round:



    It was expensive, but it let me build Longbowmen as protectors for my new cities. I remained at peace the entire round, and I know that having Longbomen prop up my power graph was part of that.

    As my intrepid little Galley sailed on, it finally encountered the last mystery civ:



    So here is the founder of Judaism--not that intimidating; Brennus is obviously much larger. I didn't get a good look at Sury's land mass during the round, but I suspect he started on a smallish continent that has restricted his ability to expand. Oh, yes, and Sury? I've got your elephants. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah...

    As I mentioned, I began to expand, founding the planned city sites.



    I won't bother you with screen shots for all of them, but I founded the cities pretty much as planned--every single one of them, so by the end of the round I had no less than 12 cities.

    I finished researching Bureaucracy shortly after I finished moving the capital to Burges (formerly Aachen), and switched civics:



    This was also the only civics change of the round. I kept running Organized Religion to help get infrastructure built. I was anticipating a change to Vassalage and Theocracy to build up promoted troops to attack England, but as you'll see, that never came to pass.

    I kept spreading the good word of Christianity:



    My own expansion meant I couldn't flood Pacal and Sitting Bull with missionaries; I needed them for my own new cities. Neither was willing to convert to Christianity, though I attained "Pleased" status with both of them.

    My Galley was making the transition from Celtic to Khmer territory, so I sought to end hostilities with Brennus:



    That was cheap, and I soon made the gold back from him in trade deals.

    This meant, however, another declaration of war to allow my explorations to continue:



    As you can see, I couldn't quite circumnavigate the globe with Galleys alone. Eventually Sury killed my Galley with two of his and I made peace with him. I decided to put further exploration on hold until I had Caravels.

    My next Great Prophet appeared, and I decided to use him to further help my economy, which would, in turn, fuel the continuing expansion.



    In 960 AD, somebody else built my favourite wonder:



    Someone else also founded Taoism. It felt strange in this game to no be pursuing the GL and the Liberalism path. Usually I build the GL and use it to generate one Great Scientist after another who lightbulb techs on the liberalism branch of the tech tree, allowing me to research other technologies. Not this time, thought, and that meant I was chasing Pacal pretty much the whole round. I didn't want to research the same techs as him, but I needed to follow him towards Optics in order to be able to spread Christianity via the Missionary-on-a-Caravel tactic.

    I did manage to get Civil Service before everybody else, but I was reluctant to trade it, especially when all I would get for it would be Horseback Riding and Aesthetics. However, espionage eventually revealed that Pacal was a few turns from finishing CS, and then he showed up with this proposition just before I was about to propose something similar:




    I was anticipating having gift Brennus a Missionary and Caravel, but it turned out to be unnecessary. He founded a new city after our peace treaty, I suppose, and Christianity spread there on its own. The first I knew of it was during the next AP vote, when his name appeared as a voting member.



    By the way, I've noticed that the shrine no longer seems to grant city visibility any more. Is that another BtS change?

    Anyway, I was now one civ away from the AP win. Yes, I know several of you have argued that it's cheap, but several of you asked to see it done, so what the heck. The next step was to gift a Christian Missionary to Sury:



    I'd already won the circumnavigation race at this point, so giving him a Caravel wasn't too painful. A few turns later, I got news that Christianity had spread to one of Sury's cities. The stage was now set. All I had to do was wait.

    And wait. And wait. And wait.

    The game seemed to be toying with me. Turn after turn went by as I waited for an AP vote option to come up. Meanwhile I kept building up my cities' infrastructure and fortunately, no one declared war. I tried to focus on growth so I would have as many votes as possible. It took until 1295 for the desired vote option to become available:



    I didn't think I had enough votes on my own, but I was hoping either Pacal or Sitting Bull or both of them would vote for me. It turned out that courting Pacal's good opinion paid off:



    So there you have it, the early religious diplomatic victory. Cheesy? Perhaps. Though I would say surviving and prospering in the early game was the tricky part, as it usually is.

    Below is the saved game from the winning turn. I'll follow up with a post mortem post for this win, then we can discuss whether I should go back and try for a different victory condition.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    Thanks for showcasing how cheesy the AP is.

    It's interesting to note that, if you had spread Christianity to only one of Pacal's city, you could have elected yourself =)

    EDIT: oh, and in case a "vote" is of importance to you: it's a pleasure to read you, so an alternate reality where you didn't elect yourself would be cool.

    Then again, ALC19 would be cool too =P
     
  5. carl corey

    carl corey Deity

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    Wow, that was even faster than I expected. Cheesier too. :lol: I know I was in favor of you trying it to show how broken it was, but wow... I hope the debates about the validity of this type of win will be closed now and that the next patch will actually do something about it. Anyway, nice going, can't wait to see what score you got for a 1300AD win! :D

    And if there's a vote, I'm for continuing the game for whatever win you'd like.
     
  6. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    AP Victory Post Mortem

    First off, a look at the map of Spain:



    The GNP graph:



    More telling is the production graph:



    I was focused on building infrastructure for most of the round, but I obviously could have turned around and built military units. By mid-game, production matters more than anything, in my book. If you're leading in production, the game is as good as won, because the AIs simply can't keep up with your ability to produce units and infrastructure.

    Power for the whole game:



    Yes, I briefly held the lead in that regard somewhere around 650 BC. Not by the end of the game, but as I said above in reference to the production graph, that could have easily changed.

    Power for the last 50 turns:



    Is it just me, or does Brennus' line in the chart appear to the be colour of Charlemagne's? Strange. Then again, I do have a partial colour blindness, so that may be affecting my judgment.

    Demographics:



    Top 5 cities:



    Heh. Sury built Angkor Wat. I get a kick out of it when this game is historically accurate, since it happens so rarely. And Pacal was going wonder-crazy in Mutal, wasn't he?

    Statistics:



    And, finally, score:



    Wow, that's a very high score for such a relatively small empire. But it's also my earliest ever win, and clearly that's a factor.

    If Pacal hadn't become Friendly towards the end--which may have been the result of that CS/HBR trade--then I wouldn't have won. However, I suspect as my new cities grew I would have had enough votes for the win all on my own, especially if I stopped spreading Christianity to other civs.

    Now. Does ALC 18 end here? I think not. Remember the purpose is to exploit all of each leader's characteristics. We have not seen Spain's UU nor its UB in effect in this game.

    So I'm thinking of doing what several of you suggested following the AP win: reload from the last save and play to a different victory condition.

    I think the early part of the round will be very similar, but after that, I would branch off. I like Porphyrius' suggestion of only founding 4 more cities in preparation for war. By then I hope to have Civil Service, Machinery, and Engineering for the main medieval units, followed by Guilds for Knights. Then it's a queue load in anticipation of attacking England. I also need to build Walls and Citadels.

    At the same time I think I'll want to make more of an effort of converting Pacal and Sitting Bull to Christianity so they can join in the fun. It's not crucial, but I built the damn AP, I may as well use it.

    How does that sound? :D
     
  7. Elandal

    Elandal King

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    Discuss? There was something to discuss? Wasn't this early AP diplomatic victory done just to show how it's done? Weren't you supposed to go back and play the real game still?

    We want Buddhist AP. We want Conquistadors. We want Citadels. We want Holy Crusade against a heretic. Get back to the drawing board, you aren't getting off this easy :)

    Note on AP diplo victories: I've once done it. Not on purpose, but it just became possible. I was running Judaism, the dominant religion that had been founded by Mansa. I built AP for denial purposes and to get some hammers to my fisheries. But Judaism just spread around the globe, and finally when Isabella decided to eradicate the heretic Ragnar (I don't remember which religions they ran, but neither was Judae) everybody had the AP religion. As the resident, I decided to see how well things stand when the option came up, and lo and behold! My buddies decided I'm the most capable leader in the world :) I had maybe a quarter of AP votes myself, not enough for any resolution by myself.
     
  8. carl corey

    carl corey Deity

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    Sounds like a plan. I've only played Izzy once until the end, and that was in Warlords where siege could kill. I'd like to see some good numbers of siege units and how they can still affect the game now that they're only softeners.

    Almost forgot: I asked in the BtS forum, and shrine line of sight is gone indeed, but religion is a factor in enemy city visibility-through-espionage.

    That's only possible if he goes back to before building the AP. Once in a religion the AP is set in it. Also, if you destroy it there are no more elections or resolutions, but you can't rebuild it.
     
  9. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    :eek: wow.

    I have mixed feelings about continuing on. You have knowledge of the map now that you didn't have before, and the sole purpose of continuing would be to showcase the UU and UB. Winning later will give you a lower score and may seem a bit anticlimactic. Odd as it sounds, I'd almost rather you start a new game (NOT building the AP) and using the UU/UB to win differently in order to show off the full range of Isabella/Spain.

    Or just mark it down as a win and go on to the next one.

    On a related point, the AP may be more challenging/interesting if someone else has it, and you scramble to either avoid the religion like crazy or embrace it and go wild increasing your voting power to stave off the AI diplomatic victory.
     
  10. alcaras

    alcaras Warlord

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    Congratulations! :D

    AP victory is really quite cheesy -- I had some fun a week ago or so by pulling off a win in multi-player, from second place on the score chart and right as the leader was about to invade me... He had unwisely conquered some other civ which had my religion (and he was the last civ without my religion) and... well, I voted myself to victory by a margin of only 5 votes or so... The remaining civs, both of whom had been pretty badly manhandled by his aggression, gladly voted for me.

    A screenshot is here, if anyone is interested to see the AP used in MP:
    http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/alcaras/Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

    It is, sadly, quite anti-climatic in its current phase. I'm not sure how to revise it, perhaps it ought to be akin to the UN, but with religion? I.E. You'd want to spread the religion to your friends and be on good terms with everyone. I.e. votes needed to win would be based on total pop, but only those with the religion could win.

    I am now eagerly looking forward to ALC 18, Parte Dos!
     
  11. Elandal

    Elandal King

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    My mistake on the AP religion problem. I guess converting others to Christianity to get a Holy Crusade will work just the same. But really - this is a religious game and we have AP, so it should get some use here.
     
  12. Welnic

    Welnic Emperor

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    Sigh. :rolleyes:

    I would just move on to the next game. Hopefully this victory condition will be fixed, so it was good to sneak it in with a good leader for it while it was available. On the other hand, it would be nice to have the real patch before the next game, so you could redo history and smite the heathens instead. Use the AP for conquest instead of cheese.
     
  13. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Exactly my feelings when I had my first AP victory.....Tasted so cheesy :blush:

    Anyway, congrats for the win and waiting to see Spanish UU and UB in action.... :rolleyes:
     
  14. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    u certainly miss the window of using your UU and UB in this game, the great library would help u lightbulb to libralism and take military tradition as free tech. u need to reload from the very early time to play differently if u want-- maybe from the time finishing off HRE.
     
  15. Cabledawg

    Cabledawg King

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    I vote for moving on to the next game. Even if you continue this game...it truly looks won anyway. Im also a big fan of production. I rarely build cottages in the early game opting for farms and mines. This game is won anyway you decide to go...move on.
     
  16. Mesousa

    Mesousa -8.38 -6.67

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    Frankly, as interesting as the assault on Charlie was, it was already pretty formulaic too. And as cheesy as the AP victory is, I don't see much need to replay part of the game only to take the usual route - early rush, Great Library, Liberalism, more conquest, win through Domination or Space Race ... not exactly something new for ALCs. If nearly every game goes the same way, there might not be that much highlighting of the leaders' differences after all. And as I recall, UUs didn't always get to shine in the past either, I think Hannibal's Numidian Cavalry were used for little more than mopping up.

    Therefore I'm fine with the AP victory - it's just how the game is at the moment. If there will be a replay, I'd strongly support going for a cultural victory this time, that has only been done once before in the ALC. Otherwise I'd consider it unnecessary except maybe as a way to pass the time until the patch is released.
     
  17. TRJS

    TRJS Warlord

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    Crusades!!!!!!!
     
  18. Tyrael

    Tyrael ALC Lurker

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    And then another one!!! :D

    I've been enjoying the in-character element of this ALC. It's a very nice twist to what would be a typical great ALC game, making it an AWESOME one. Besides, Sis could put (Special Feature: Izzy's Crusades) at the end of the link in the ALC Bullpen. The technical term for that would be "sick", I believe. ;)
     
  19. Black_Waltz

    Black_Waltz Chieftain

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    I'm with the rest. We've seen the cheese. But now we have foreknowledge of what is going to happen. The only interesting continuation from my eyes would be going for a Conquest or a Domination. A Crusade of the Mighty Izzy against the Heathens making them worship the One True God.
     
  20. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    Well you can start before you finish building the AP for Bud Religion and go on a holy Crusade against Lizzy and the Jews.

    OR

    Start a New Izzy game with different Goals in mind. Maybe Ignore the early Religions and make beelines towards Engineering and Military Tradition and Aim for a Domination Victory.

    Doesn't really make a difference if you conquer or found the holy cities anyways. Make sure to have at least 1 GP to bulb theo though lol.
     

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