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ALC Game 18, Take 2: Spain/Isabella

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    Scientists provided by the GL give you 6 :science:.

    An empire of 6 cities with closed borders gets an extra 6 :commerce: with Currency.
     
  2. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    There's room for another 3 cities in north west (inc Barb city); however 6 cities will put a strain on the economy in the short to medium term. Economic tech will help with this (as will maturing cottages). But if S researches CoL and currency he's not researching machinery for crossbows.
    Will Augustus wait 30-40 turns for S to expand behind closed borders or will he declare on S to fuel his own expansion?
     
  3. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    The point of getting the GL is NOT the 6 :science:, actually its pretty mediocre even if doubled via representation considering the GL obsoletes rather quickly. It would thus not be worth the :hammers: and the :science: spend towards literacy.

    The main thing about GL and specialists before bilogy and usually representation is the GPP. 8 GPP towards a GS are nothing to sneer at this early.

    By the way are we efficient getting the next GP as a GPriest?
    A GScientist looks as having plenty of uses, some quite immidiate some not. At least lets try to aim for one as the next GP.
     
  4. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    I'm not certain, but I doubt that gifts work to get the 10 turn treaty. It's too obvious of an exploit, so I doubt the designers would have let it slip by. Gifting someone 1 gold every 10 turns should not be a way to guarantee peace for all time.

    Zienth
     
  5. Scarredroman

    Scarredroman Warlord

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    Walls in Seville would help, too. Axes are good too. Sisutil is getting left behind on the power chart and that's never a good sign. How many more turns will Joao wait before trying to expand? Military builds and techs seem the way Spain has to go.

    Don't want to start gifting Augustus techs.
     
  6. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    We have no pressing use for :hammers:???

    I suspect Augustus will be spending plenty of :hammers: building prats, and it will cost us more than a few :hammers: to dismantle them. Not to mention all of the other potential uses for :hammers: such as wonders, settlers, workers, a navy for exploration...

    I've been in a situation where I had no need for :hammers:, very early in a game when I didn't have techs for any buildings, was in an isolated start, had enough troops to deal with barbs, had REXed enough that my economy was just about tanked, and didn't have currency or writing so I couldn't divert :hammers: to :commerce: or :science:. All I could build was units, which just added to my economic problem. I ended up building units and immediately disbanding them. :ack: That was a situation where I had no pressing use for :hammers:.

    Zienth
     
  7. Porphyrius

    Porphyrius Warlord

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    Gifts, even substuntial ones that give + to diplomatic relations dont give 10 turns truce as far as i know.
    Succesful demands or pleas however do. One can gift something substantial raise diplo relatios a bit, and plea for something else(provided relations are pleased+ in the first place). It ends up in a sort of poor trade too.;)

    I have noticed times when the 10 turns of no talk after war declaration are not kept in BTS though, so maybe theres a bug or extra condition involved.:confused:

    Xbows are the most efficient thing against praets. And since our research is better off than our :hammers: right now waiting for them makes sense unless immidiate danger is diagnosed. Sisiutil will have to devote most likely Seville after machinery to making Xbows in an effort to maintain power parity.

    I am not speaking of pressing need of :hammers:, but of land producing :hammers: more than :commerce:.
    It wouldnt really be feasible anyway. Joaos land can up our :hammers: per turn IF conquered. Which needs actually :hammers: to be spend beforehand on military. :hammers: that could otherwise be spend towards a bit of expansion in the available space and infrastructure that beefs up :science: and the economy in general.
    Merely defending and expanding will boost research in the short/mid term.

    The situation you describe is one where poor expansion and economy managment early and its the same rules applied earlier to the extreme. Should one take the time to get the right techs and infrastructure, it is easily avoided.
    So its a matter of prioritizing :commerce: over :hammers: just like currently.
    And sometimes its better to act in this fashion, even far from economical stagnation just to make overall plans more efficient. ;)

    PS: Sorry for the light sniping but apparently 20+ smileys are too much in this forums...:crazyeye:
     
  8. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    Again, i'm pretty sure this isn't the way it works. It would mean you could keep peace for the whole game by gifting away a tiny sum of gold every 10 turns.
     
  9. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    The best way to leverage your choices so far (such as bulbing Theology) is to leave Augustus blocked and kill Joao with Cats+Swords+Spears before getting more cities (maybe take the barb city instead of letting your half-built army sit around). That should get you there before Longbows.

    Likewise, to put off Currency. I'd research Literature, planning for Colossus+GL+NE in Barcelona and HE in Madrid. It's also good for trading. Then Currency -> Machinery -> Engineering and go after Rome.

    Likewise, to skip anything expensive with diplomacy. You just need Augustus to stay off your back, can hold him off with Shock Axemen, and are going to kill him.

    Good suggestion to build another Temple in Madrid for the Solomon prophet, but grow to your happy cap before running any specialists.

    You should get all your hills worked. Maybe build more Workers.

    I don't think moving the barb city is worth the Settler.
     
  10. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Good point. The sooner we establish a strong beachhead in the New World, the easier our thrust for domination will be.

    This I'm not so sure about. Attempting to muscle in on a new continent will require more than just the cash to support a few cities over there. If we want to launch a full-scale invasion we'll need a lot of troops and a large navy to transport them.

    We might find a convenient peninsula or island on which to secure a staging post. But we're going to have to rely on our Old World empire to provide the bulk of our forces. Five or six cities doesn't sound like nearly enough to me.

    And, if we don't eliminate (or at least cripple) our neighbours, then we'll need to leave a fair few units behind just in case.

    Still, it's an interesting plan. If Sis doesn't take it up, maybe you could try a shadow game and tell us how it works out... :yup:
     
  11. zienth

    zienth Chieftain

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    Oh, the situation I described was certainly one of poor expansion and economy management. I learned my lesson. It was just an example that came to mind when I really didn't need any more :hammers:. Your sniping was light enough that it didn't bother me, but I appreciate your PS. :goodjob:

    Looking at the power graph, we do have a pressing need to build up our forces. Given that we need to spend the :hammers: on military, I'd rather do something with those troops, like getting more :hammers: to spend on more troops, so we can use those troops to get even more :hammers:.

    The trick is to do it quickly enough so that we only fight one AI at a time, but slowly enough to avoid tanking the economy. But that's Sisiutil's job, so I don't have to worry about it. :mischief:

    Zienth
     
  12. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    I'd say our continent is really small for 3 civs
    There's unknown land beyond the Stone.
     
  13. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    Perhaps I have been getting my unsolicited gifts confused with AI requests for techs. But I seem to recall that giving an unsolicited tech (not just a measly 10 :gold:) got me the 10 turns. But I will defer to the XML gods on this issue and stick to what I know, which is pizza and longwinded posts.
     
  14. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Oh yes, I forgot about that. There may be some north of the Roman mountains too. They're probably just dead ends, but it's worth sending a boat to check them out anyway. This being a fractal map, we might even find a pre-Optics route to the other continent(s).
     
  15. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

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    Here's what i did:
    - started a new game, founded a city.
    - entered WB
    - gave me Alphabet, gave me a scout near an AI's city
    - lowered my science slider to get a positive amount of GPT
    - skipped a few turns to accumulate a sum of gold
    - tried gifting Alphabet, the gold, and the GPT, in three different offers.

    Checking the "Active" screen after every gift showed me that none induced the signing of a Peace Treaty.

    I detailed my M.O. so that if i made a mistake, someone can quickly find out and point it to me.
    As far as i know at the moment (afaikatm?), it works as i said it did.
     
  16. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    Just a thought: How terrible would the world be if Augie went and founded a city or even two in the currently open area? Once filled, would it at least reduce the manic urge to settle by our competitors - and thereby lessen their desire to take us down to get to the open spots? If Augie takes the time to settle and start to build up these cities, perhaps that's less going toward military for him (not to mention a bit more upkeep and the better diplo relations with open borders). This might give us more comfort in going after our southern neighbor and possibly concentrate more on that.

    I understand the downside of giving the AI land to work with, but without going back to look it seems to me that it might be a while before the surrounding land is totally workable. Plus, if we close borders after the land is settled, I think it would mean that the new cities would not have access to iron (and troops/workers could not get to them) barring some sea route.

    Any thoughts as to whether this is a viable idea? Could it even apply to Jao in that maybe he spreads his current military out to settle and leaves his bigger cities less defended? And if either settle cities in good spots, that means less settlers for us to build.
     
  17. LightSpectra

    LightSpectra me autem minui

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    I think we should declare war on Rome. Else he's going to be haunting us with Great Spies for awhile.
     
  18. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    ...Wow, great land out there.
    Okay, my checklist goes as follows:
    1) Raise 2 Stacks of Doom, then a Defensive Stack for your border cities. Equip Seville and maybe Cordoba with Walls, and try to trade for Archery from Augustus (the "You have shared your tech discoveries with us" bonus may be useful". Why? If Joao bribes Augustus into a DoW, you're a sitting duck in the Eastern Front.
    2) Declare on Joao. Keep no cities except for Lisbon, and the city preventing Augustus's southerly expansion.
    3) After beating down Joao, set your targets on a beeline for Optics. That'll get you Metal Casting (do you have it?) and Machinery, so you can upgrade your units for an assault on Augustus.
    4) Create Caravels and send em scouting. Switch to No State when this is occurring to prevent diplomatic penalties early into the game, and before you choose your alliances overseas.
    5) Beat down Augustus. Secure your continent while spying on your alliance members. However evil that sounds, you'll know when to keep em in line and when to ditch them.
     
  19. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    Did I forget to mention that Augustus did, indeed, use his Great Spy for a Golden Age? :dubious: :rolleyes:
     
  20. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    Funny stuff. I suppose it's good news for you though. Less worries about infiltration or being behind the EP-8 ball.

    Which way are you leaning, Sisiutil? War or peace? Joao or Augie?
     

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