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ALC Game #23: America/Lincoln

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. BlueSoxSWJ

    BlueSoxSWJ Chieftain

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    props for the best butcher of "friendly" I've ever seen ...

    re: WFYABTA: Each leader has a set number of techs they'll let you get via trade/peace extortion/tribute/gift over the entire game. The specific number depends on the difficulty level and leader. All techs are equal (even partially researched ones) when it comes to WFYABTA; but an AI only knows about techs you've received since you made contact - if S takes the peace and trades, the four techs will not count against WFYABTA for the leaders he hasn't yet met. Also, every time you advance an era, all the leaders "forget" one tech you've received. As has been mentioned, WFYABTA is overridden if the leader in question is friendly.

    "We would rather win the game" is different from WFYABTA - it applies to space race techs, which (afaik) you can never trade for from an AI.

    As for the tech trades/peace offer, I'd say it comes down to whether or not you benefit from them immediately. You also already got archery and meditation from trade, so that's 2 against you ... as much as it seems silly at first to give up a "free" tech, you may want to take only 1 or 2 of HC's techs.
     
  2. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    I think Monarchy/Organised Religion/Code of Laws should be researched in order to change civics more often. Preferably with multiple civics changes per switch to maximise the periods of anarchy
     
  3. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    I wouldn't really worry about WFYABTA this game. Hatty will most likely stay friendly till at least liberalism (and beyond if you beat her to it and deny her free religion). Hatty will tech fast enough that you can just tech whore with her.

    I'm more concerned that Monty has managed to box you in. I think you concentrated too much on the war effort and forgot to settle a city to the west. Now you're going to have to rush out a few setters to the south of Washington to grab that land (in mediocre city locations I imagine) to keep Monty from growing too large.

    It looks like Monty is going to have about 15-20% landmass this game so he's going to be a tough cookie to handle. Can you bribe Monty against HC? If so, I'd prolong the "war" by just blocking in HC and spamming cities while Monty tries to build an army to conquer HC. It'll give you time to grab more land and give you diplo points with Monty.
     
  4. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    Location:
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    Round 4: 275 BC to 190 AD (31 turns), Part 1

    The round started with me going ahead with a number of the things I'd tentatively suggested at the end of the last round. Starting with the tech trade with Montezuma:



    And I took that techs-for-peace deal from Huayna, even though I only planned on killing him off 10 turns later.



    I also adjusted my tech goal. I decided that I had to be realistic: Montezuma has expanded like crazy and is breathing down my neck. I'm going to face off against him in a long, destructive war. So I need military techs. The Great Library is, I realized, a pipe dream, reminding myself of my own admonitions to other players to forgo all those shiny wonders when they go up a level. So I switched research from Aesthetics to Construction.




    I also, as Patagonia suggested, changed to No State Religion for a few turns so the two formerly-Incan holy cities could expand their borders:



    I stayed in NSR for about 20 turns, so that both Cuzco's and Tiwanaku's borders popped not once, but twice.

    On the next turn, I continued to use the whip; I yielded it in the capital to finish the library there.



    I whipped less in this round, however, because my cities had happy/healthy room to grow. Also, I was beginning to get my specialist economy off the ground, and that meant my cities had to be large enough to run a couple of specialists and work tiles to both grow and build improvements or units.

    I sent my Scout past the barb city, then sent him along the south coast of the continent to to a more thorough job of exploring than I did before. I discovered another resource there:



    I'm not sure it's worth razing that barb city for, or changing the location of the spice/deer city. Whales are like that, almost always in awkward spots.

    I met yet another inhabitant of this increasingly-crowded snaky continent:



    The good news is abundant here. First off, Shaka is obviously nowhere nearby. Second, he's a fellow Buddhist; once I switch back to that religion, I should be able to bring him around. Third, he's low on the scoreboard and I have several techs on him. If things stay that way, I may be able to use him for backfill techs. Finally, he wasn't around to see my previous tech trades, so they won't count against his WFYABTA limit.

    The 10 turns was up. I first checked the diplomatic hits I'd take for attacking Huayna:



    This was acceptable. My two triangle diplomacy partners, Hatshepsut and Hammurabi, didn't like him. I'd take hits from several others, unfortunately--but the shared religion benefit should outweigh that with Shaka and Gilgamesh.

    So it was time for the Incans to be put out of their misery.



    As my stack marched on Machu Picchu, I finished my next tech:



    Even though it's a military tech and more costly than Monarchy, no one was willing to trade that tech to me. So I began to research it to make the deal more acceptable to the AI. Sure enough, on the next turn, Zara came by with an offer:



    However, I turned him down. I preferred to deal with someone a little further down the tech totem pole:



    I then began to research Calendar, again hoping to lower its price in the eyes of the AI.

    My stack was now outside the last Incan city and ready to attack:



    Though I had several veteran units ready for their next promotion--in fact, because of that--I attacked with the rookies first, sacrificing them for the greater good.



    IIRC, I lost two of them, and they did what they were supposed to do, weaken the defenders for the other units. So now my veterans could attack and earn their next few promotions.





    I razed it. Not because I can't afford it, I think I could with a SE, but because Creative Hatty's culture will overwhelm it and she'll take it from me. Why make things easier for the board leader? Let her build her own damn city there rather than stealing one I had to fight to get. Just to further make my point, I pillaged the nearby tile improvements before I moved on.

    That battle earned me my first Great General. As suggested, rather than combining him with my Combat I/Medic I Chariot for a MASH unit, I settled him in New York so I can produce promoted units.



    I'm sure I'll earn a GG early on in the war with Monty, and he'll be used to create the super-medic.

    I began moving my stack back into my own territory and down toward that southern barb city. Around this time I noticed some of Monty's units wandering through my territory, such as this Horse Archer.



    I wanted to be able to leave my eastern cities lightly defended so I can focus on the western front. But if Monty had units scouting around in the east, I'd have to worry about them posing a problem there. So it was time to close my borders to the Aztecs.



    I wasn't really ready to take him on just yet, and I was hoping he wasn't ready yet either. I certainly didn't see anything resembling a stack along our shared border. That doesn't mean it's not there, just that I didn't think the threat was immediate. Of course I know I'm playing with dynamite to an extent. Losing the OB diplomatic bonus will worsen relations with Montezuma and make war more likely.

    With libraries and scientists running in several cities, I finally started taking advantage of the Philosophical trait. My first Great Person, a Great Scientist, appeared in New York. He would have lightbulbed Compass, so I used him instead for an Academy in the capital, my intended GP farm.



    That shaved a turn off Calendar right away, and in turn, made Zara willing to trade it to me.



    I normally don't like trading a military tech like construction, but at this level, what choice do I have?

    To be continued...
     
  5. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    Can you confirm? I was under the impression that each turn, each leader has a (small) random chance of forgetting one tech.
     
  6. mattkaru

    mattkaru Chieftain

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    Another nice update!

    And woah, Sis! Call me crazy but did Monty really found a city just west of Washington? :eek: I noticed a bit of lime green on your border. I still don't believe it..

    It's a good thing you're closing borders with him. I think it's time to get the war machine under way before he starts going *completely* nuts on you..
     
  7. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    Location:
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    Round 4: 275 BC to 190 AD (31 turns), Part 2

    Shaka showed up on the very turn before I was about to convert back to Buddhism myself, demanding I do so.



    Well, that was easy--like I said, I was about to do so myself, but now in the bargain I earned a +1 diplomacy bonus with one of the neighbours. Excellent.

    Now that Huayna was done like dinner, I marched my stack over to that barb city to my south.



    I earned a few more XPs and got myself another city and some more resources. The wheat and pigs will be welcome; In this game, many of my cities are in danger of hitting their health caps before their happiness caps. I think that's a function of Charismatic, of having several civs on the map to trade resources with, and HR. The horses will be welcome, too--normally I wouldn't trade them, but I have very few surplus resources right now, so I will. They'll be very valuable and will probably bring in a couple of resources and some GPT too. Hammurabi doesn't have horses but has several surplus resources, so I may end up trading them to him.

    Speaking of my friends, Hatty continues to be a living doll. Now that I'm a Buddhist again, look what she gave me just 'cause I asked:



    However, not all is sweetness and light between me and my androgynous gal. She plunked down a city right on my borders, which will inevitably steal one of my calendar resources from me:



    Oh, well, I suppose that's a gimme, given how generous she's been otherwise. If I load up Cuzco with culture--a shrine there would definitely help--then I may get the tile back. As it is, I stopped building a plantation there. Why make things easier for her?

    I researched currency on my own, as well as my next tech:



    Now, I actually ended the round on this turn, but as you'll see, several things now occurred.

    For starters, I'd generated my next Great Person, another Great Scientist, this time in Washington, just a few turns before. I'd set him aside pending the arrival of CoL. So now I used him to lightbulb...



    And I was the first one to it, which means I got to found a religion. I had my choice of Hinduism or this one, and given that I'm playing as America, I couldn't resist the irony. :lol:



    I then went around to see what I could get for Code of Laws.



    It was less empowering to trade CoL to Gilgamesh, seeing as how he's already able to build his courthouse-based Ziggurats because he has Priesthood. So now I have another military tech in preparation for hostilities with Monty.

    And that ended the round. So let's have a look at the state of the world. First of all, the map. Starting with the Aztec west...



    And here's a look at the east:



    I probably should have gotten more of this area explored, but I still only have the one Scout and I got kind of anal and sent him to reveal all those tundra/ice coastal tiles south of Egpyt. You can see that Sumer has expanded into the far southeast. I'll swing the Scout due north in the next round to hopefully reveal Babylonian territory and maybe find out where Shaka is.

    Domestic Advisor:




    So, a mix of domestic and civilian builds at the moment. Once Washington and NY get those missionaries out of the way, I want them both to focus on military units, especially NY, which has that settled GG for +2 XP. But you can see only two of my cities have Buddhism, so I need to spread it around a little.

    Civics:



    As many of you have been facetiously pointing out, we're overdue for a civics change. There's been only one in this game, to Slavery early on. What I'm thinking of doing is adopting Hereditary Rule and Organized Religion at the start of the next round. OR will accrue diplomatic bonuses with Hatty, HR with Gilgamesh. Caste System is tempting, but I think I need to use the whip some more to get a bigger army built up before I can afford to adopt it. In fact, I may not switch to it until I feel that the upcoming war with Monty has tipped in my favour.

    Foreign Advisor, Glance:



    The good news here is how happy my two triangle diplomacy partners are with one another. Hatty and Hammy are both "Friendly" with one another, and that's good; nothing messes up triangle diplomacy quite like having one of your partners as the worst enemy of the other. Gilgamesh and Shaka will also probably end up in pleased to friendly territory before long, thanks to the shared religion.

    Resources:



    I don't have a lot of surplus resources in this game, which makes Montezuma's land all the more appetizing. I'm not hurting too badly yet, and indeed I have some additional resources (fish, pigs, wheat, deer, spices) that I should be easily able to claim in the next round if I found a couple more cities. But it's surplus resources that allow you to trade for what you don't have but need, and I'm not able to do that much yet.

    Technology:



    I felt pretty good about my teching skills in this round. I beelined to Construction, which I was able to trade for several techs I needed, and I researched some trade-worthy techs on my own, too, now that the SE is kicking in. So I'm not too far behind, all things considered. Remember that I also have Philosophy in my back pocket; I just can't trade it until the next turn. I was thinking of trading it to Gilgamesh for Feudalism, assuming he's willing to part with it. The AI highly values Fedualism, so it's a tough call, but it would be great to be able to field Longbowmen against Montezuma.

    What should my tech path be in the next round? I've chosen Metal Casting--also a good tech for trading--and I was thinking of Civil Service and Machinery after that, though not necessarily in that order. If my next Great Scientist appears before CS is done, I'll probably just save him to lightbulb Paper.

    Power:



    You can see why I think I should stay in Slavery for a few more turns at least, as well as why I'd love to get my hands on Feudalism. Monty has, surprise surprise, been building units, so when he declares war I'll face an onslaught. The AI loves military units, so I'm producing several Spearmen. The War Elephants will be trouble, the Horse Archers less so. I want to be ready.

    In the war, I was thinking of grabbing Xochicalco, that little desert hillside city Monty plunked down next to Washington. If Monty declares war anytime soon, it's not well defended, and since it's on a hill, it's relatively easy to defend. It's also perfectly placed, claiming the clams, wine, and two or three flood plains. I expect the brunt of Monty's attack will come against Boston, especially if I capture Xochicalco; Boston now has a wall and is where I'm focusing my forces. I haven't built many Catapults yet, because I think I'll first need defensive units like Spears and Archers or, if I'm lucky on the next turn, Longbowmen.

    Demographics:



    I'm very low--at the bottom, in fact--in production and--yikes!--military. But as I said, I aim to fix that very early in the next round. Production is low because I'm still expecting to whip so I'm working high-food tiles. The military situation, though, has to be addressed.

    Espionage:



    As you may have noticed, I'm lacking demographic information on most of the other civs. Now that I have CoL for courthouses I hope to begin addressing that. Of course, military will take precedence for awhile.

    So that's the round. I give myself high scores on the tech front, but low on military--I was in 3rd and let myself fall to last, and with Monty on my doorstep, that's a very bad place to be. Let's hope I can get Feudalism for Longbows by trading away Philosophy (hey, I really didn't expect to win the Liberalism race on my first outing at Immortal level). And the whip shall sing its song of desperation and pain...
     

    Attached Files:

  8. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    don't worry about being low on military if you are not in a war at the moment. The reason others have high military is because of high city populations.
     
  9. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Six cities! The game is won! :)lol: You're not Obsolete yet).

    Think about how you can get a priest for the Buddhist shrine (temple in Cuzco?) edit: oops, not paying attention here. Change that to "Taoist or "Confucian shrine".

    Nice of Monty and the Barbs to give you good city placements. (That means the next 5 cities you capture will be badly placed :rolleyes:).

    Can't wait for the war with Monty (even if it's West vs East, and not North against South). You should make those 2 hills west of Boston Monty's Cemetary Ridge.

    Great job so far.:goodjob:
     
  10. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    You should consider settling the deer/spice city and capturing the northern barb city before tangling with Monty, if for no other reason to prevent Hatty from settling on your doorstep.

    Techwise, if Monty is keen on mounted units in this game, then a beeline to Engineering may be in order. Pikemen will totally negate his 'phants and horse archers, at least until he gets Guilds. Overall, it sounds like you could use the entire suite of medieval war techs.

    Also: why not research Feudalism a bit and see if Hatty will give it to you for CoL? It's a matter of time before she has it anyway.
     
  11. patagonia

    patagonia Emperor

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    Hammy will give you fish, spices and 9:gold:/turn for your horses. Now that you've got another resource to pasteurize, I strongly advise you to take that bonanza deal. Unfortunately he doesn't like you enough to give you ivory for horse yet, but you may be able to renegotiate that once you've accumulated more bonuses with him.

    You can also sell polytheism to Shaka for 70:gold:, which is another deal worth taking. Everyone else knows it so you might as well be the one to cash in.

    Engineering's a good tech to head for if you're planning a lot of war, but it's notoriously hard to beat the AI up that path so trading opportunities will be limited. Civil Service would probably be a better bet and the boost you get in Washington will more than offset the increased civics cost. It'll also put you in Hammy's favourite civic, helping to quickly bump you up to friendly with both your buddies. After that, trading up the machinery/engineering path makes sense to me. You should also be able to get some good deals on monopoly techs with Hammy/Hatty too.
     
  12. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Emperor

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    Shouldn't be that far away as Monty is already in WHEOOHRN! Maybe Sisiutil should think about postponing all this civilian stuff he is currently building.

    Ok, nice to see this problem occur in a public game:
    Hammy refuses to trade his Ivory due to a bug which involves a wrong determination of his true attitude toward Sisiutil. In the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml his entry for the relevant threshold is <StrategicBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold> ATTITUDE_CAUTIOUS </StrategicBonusRefuseAttitudeThreshold>
    which says that he must allow to trade strategic resources whenever he is above CAUTIOUS (and he is PLEASED now).

    I am trying to discuss this problem (unfortunately without many responses) in this thread.

    With the fix/modification Hammy will trade Ivory:
     
  13. patagonia

    patagonia Emperor

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    America is the likely target, but Zara's actually Monty's worst enemy at the moment, so there's a chance he might be going for him instead. It's always hard to tell with Monty.
     
  14. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Too bad you razed the last city of the inca's. It could have worked as a culture buffer for cuzco against the egypts. Now the egypts have taken that place and putting you under more cultural pressure. Also this would have provided you with stone which is an excellent resource to trade away as you are not likely to build too many world wonders. But the game is looking good so far.
     
  15. kazapp

    kazapp Emperor

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    Yes!!

    At least we can hope the war becomes long and destructive (read "exciting and tense") though with Sis' warring skills it wouldn't surprise me if the war is one-sided and relatively painless... :rolleyes: :lol:





    If, that is, Sis' doesn't luck out (read "shows off his diplo skills") and sees Monty DoW somebody else. Obviously, as soon as Zara asks Sis for help, he should be more than happy to oblige - I'm fairly confident Sis' understands the folly of allowing Mad Monty to live much longer in this game.

    Remember the Immortal level - there can be only one! :p
     
  16. Babibo

    Babibo Immortal

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    I wonder if getting a little bit of culture for the incan cities was worth 2 turns of anarchy (switch out of Buddhism and back). But changing state religion is something I do rarely, so maybe I'm wrong concerning the 2 turns ?
     
  17. patagonia

    patagonia Emperor

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    In a larger, more developed empire, it wouldn't be.

    Neither of those cities, however, had any means of producing a significant amount culture any time soon. It was basically trading 2 turns of production everywhere for a local boost and the ability to divert production to other sources.

    Getting a city to it's 3rd border pop (100:culture: on normal, 150 on epic) is useful because of the way culture mechanics work in CIV. You get a "free" 20:culture:/turn on every tile inside the outer ring and this adds up with each border pop. By expanding to the third ring, you'll get 40 free :culture:/turn on every inner ring square and 20 free :culture:/turn on every 2nd ring square from that point onwards (you get the culture output of the city added to each outer ring square).

    Hatty's culture will still be a problem in that part of the world, but it's given Sis a good chance of keeping hold of most of the useful tiles those two cities possess.

    NB - if I've got any of these culture mechanics skewed in my head, someone please correct me :)
     
  18. BlueSoxSWJ

    BlueSoxSWJ Chieftain

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    Zara is a long ways away from Monty, and S closed the borders, so now Monty can't even get to anyone but America. Monty still has some jungle left, so if when he declares before you have an adequate offensive stack, you may want to build/whip/chop some woodsman promoted units and try to park them on a jungle hill near one of his cities. This will at least stifle Monty's workers, and he'll probably throw lots of units at them to break the "siege." Even if he kills them, he should lose a lot of units doing so, which will mean less units trying to burn the Red Sox' and Celtics' championship banners.
     
  19. kazapp

    kazapp Emperor

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    Isn't Zara the civ on the island west of Monty?
     
  20. kazapp

    kazapp Emperor

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    Good observation!

    But I would say America is too in WHEOOHRN... :ar15:
     

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