ALC Game #25: Celts/Boudica

Sisiutil

All Leader Challenger
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All Leaders Challenge Game #25:
Celts/Boudica




Pre-Game Thread

Starting Position (this post, below)
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2725 BC (51 turns)
Round 2: 2725 BC to 1675 BC (42 turns)


The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake. ;)

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Boudica, leader of the Celts. I'm playing the game using the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, its latest patch (3.17), and Solver's unofficial patch as well. (EDIT: I have now applied Dresden`s unofficial update to the unofficial patch as well.) The difficulty level is Immortal and the speed is Epic.

Here are some details about the map and other settings:



In addition, I added two civs, bringing the total number up to nine (including me) from the standard seven. I've been doing this for a few games now and I find it does add a lot to the game--more diplomacy, trading, and war options.

I've used a Fractal map (Standard size as usual) this time. While I enjoy the tectonics maps, I don't know if the AI is really capable of adjusting to the challenges of that map type. Many of you suggested Shuffle, but that would randomly choose Pangaea (a map too much in Boudica's favour), archipelago (too much the other way), or continents (boring!). Fractal would give me the unpredictability some of you were after with Shuffle, while still offering some balance in terms of challenges and advantages. Provided the map wasn't odd in some way; hence my decision to have someone screen it.

I generated three starts. I then had regular ALC contributor Oyzar choose what he thought would be the best map for an ALC Boudica game from the three maps that I generated. I gave him no specific criteria beyond that. In addition to his insightful contributions to these threads, Oyzar and I talk off-line regularly; I trust his judgement.

Regarding the custom options I've chosen: I'm hoping that these settings will add a little more challenge to the game. Immortal has not proved quite as intimidating as I'd thought it would; I noticed, however, that in both the Lincoln and Hammurabi games that I relied heavily on tech brokering. Hence my decision to turn that option on. It seems to be one of the few custom game settings that--at least in my experience with it--doesn't add more of a challenge for the AI than for the human player.

I am also finding that goody huts can be overpowering because they appear in the oh-so-crucial early turns of the game. In addition, since Boudica starts with Hunting and, therefore, a Scout, that gives her an advantage in finding tribal villages (though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?). Random events, on the other hand, tend to increase in frequency and import only as the game progresses. Which is why I left them on.

I did not select Aggressive AI because I find that it only makes the early game a little more challenging; if you survive, you'll rocket ahead of the AI in technology while it struggles to pay for all those extra units.

A reminder as to Boudica's unique characteristics:



And finally, what you've all been eagerly awaiting, the starting position:



I'd guess that I'm located in the southern hemisphere and not too far from the pole. The silver and the crabs are certainly nice, but not too unbalancing right away, as I will need to research techs I don't currently possess in order to work those tiles. Does researching Fishing followed by Mining make sense to everyone? The start also has some grassland tiles (including at least 3 beside rivers) for cottages to leverage Bureaucracy later on. Hills for production too. Overall, it appears to be a decent capital, not too overpowered.

The only alternative to settling in place would appear to be 1W, across the river; I might gain some more riverside tiles as a result. That, however, will cost me a turn. Should the Scout move 1SW to see if it's worthwhile? On the other hand, we discussed building Stonehenge; it can be challenging to build on Immortal, so the loss of a turn may not be worth it. There's a 3 hammer tile (the SE forested plains hill) I can work right away (at the cost of growth, however).

So deciding to settle in place or not may depend on us agreeing on our initial plan--Stonehenge or not? That will also affect the initial Scout movement: pass on Stonehenge and he should probably go 1SW to see if moving the Settler is worth it; go after the 'henge and I'm probably going to settle in place, so the Scout can head off to explore--probably 1NE and then whatever tile looks best.

And should I start building the 'henge right away and delay my initial growth, or attempt some other builds like a Scout or Warrior, Fishing Boat, and Worker? It's a big tradeoff--freeze early growth and development for the wonder, or focus on growing and improving tiles while losing the wonder.

I look forward to hearing what everyone thinks! I'll try to play the first round tomorrow, and post it, so we don't spend too long debating the start... :lol:
 

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Fishing>mining>BW.
Warrior>WB>worker.
If copper and nearby civ consider rushing otherwise stonehenge.
 
Settle in place ;)
no early wonders on immortal.

though as I recall all AI civs start with a Scout at Immortal level--am I right about that?
2 scouts for the AI last time I checked (long time, could be changed)
 
Settle in place

Techs: fishing/mining/BW. If there is copper very near for a second city then the wheel, otherwise archery as tech 4.

Build order: scout/workboat/workboat/warrior/worker/warrior or archer

There may be another food resource to the east or west of the settler, the scout can move either way.

As far as Stonehenge, see what the status is after BW. If it's still reachable and there are no maniacs near you, try and chop it out.
 
- Moving your Scout SW would only reveal tiles that were going to be in your capital anyway. To see anything useful, you'd have to move two turns, and that's too long. So... send your Scout NE and settle in place.

- I'd say Stonehenge is situational (dependent on what you find by Scouting). So, you need to pick an opening that leaves you with options.
Warrior/Fishing
WorkBoat/Mining
Worker/Bronze Working
is by far the most flexible - it puts you in a position to grow, to whip, to chop, and to find copper. Mining and BW would also give your worker something to do... mining the Silver, and pre-chopping trees.

I suggest you take that opening (which I see pigswill also came up with) - you can add a second WB if it looks like the builds are going to finish before the techs. Then, end the round once BW and the Worker are done. That's when you have to decide whether the Henge is your target... though my inclination is to say it shouldn't be, you'll have too much else to do.
 
It looks like you have 2 unforested land tiles in your BFC - I bet there's one more food resource in either one of them. I don't think it changes anything though, fishing->mining->BW seems like a no-brainer. But maybe if there's deer.. Then it might be worthwhile to go worker first while teching straight to mining->BW for whipping/chopping.
 
Settle in place.

Tech: fishing → mining → bronze working.

Build: warrior → work boat → worker

If the worker is going to be completed long before bronze working, squeeze another work boat in there.
 
The AI starts with scouts at Emperor so I assume they do at Immortal as well :)

As you start off with Mysticism you should do something that uses this. As I suspect an early religion is impossible at this level (as well as not useful, you want to pick another Ai's religion) I think you should go for Stonehenge (it will only take you 30 turns :lol:). At the very least it will make things interesting :D

For knowledge, I see no problems going for initially useful technologies as the religious techs are a waste of time.

So we have:
Settle in place
Stonehenge, WB, WB, worker
Fishing, mining, BW

And an easy win :crazyeye:
 
I'm not able to give you any constructive advice but I'll keep checking the thread regularly. Good luck and have fun!
 
It looks like you have 2 unforested land tiles in your BFC - I bet there's one more food resource in either one of them. I don't think it changes anything though, fishing->mining->BW seems like a no-brainer. But maybe if there's deer.. Then it might be worthwhile to go worker first while teching straight to mining->BW for whipping/chopping.

Fishing -> mining -> BW seems pretty obvious, going worker first without a food resource is just not worth it... Build a warrior until you can build workboat...

Would still go fishing -> mining -> BW if there is deer, only difference is that then you do worker first(hooking up the deer and the silver is more than enough to warrant it even if you can't chop imeadiatly after getting it up)...

If there is irrigated corn it might be worth it to go AG first, but not worth to pursue much other resources...

The AI starts with scouts at Emperor so I assume they do at Immortal as well :)

As you start off with Mysticism you should do something that uses this. As I suspect an early religion is impossible at this level (as well as not useful, you want to pick another Ai's religion) I think you should go for Stonehenge (it will only take you 30 turns :lol:). At the very least it will make things interesting :D

For knowledge, I see no problems going for initially useful technologies as the religious techs are a waste of time.

So we have:
Settle in place
Stonehenge, WB, WB, worker
Fishing, mining, BW

And an easy win :crazyeye:

Stonehenge is going to limit expansion too much. Sure you can get it but it'll probably lead to being boxed in too fast and/or being too far behind due to slow expansion. As someone said in the pre-game thread, only worth it if he is isolated and have no good city spots, but then what would be the fun in that?
 
As someone said in the pre-game thread, only worth it if he is isolated and have no good city spots, but then what would be the fun in that?

I know it's gamey, but it also crossed my mind that if someone's vetted the starting positions to be 'a good map for Boudica,' Sis probably isn't isolated. Still, I wouldn't really expect you to comment on that, Oyzar...

I'd certainly say that if any neighbours have Mysticism, Stone, or Industrious, we should skip it and hope they build it for us. &Even if that's not the case, Boudica wasn't made to build.
 
I think if you want to go for Stonehenge, I'd do the following:

Tech: Fishing-->Mining-->BW
Build: Stonehenge-->swap to workboat-->stonehenge

Emphasize growth with your hammers going to Stonehenge. When fishing is online, max hammer output. Swap to that forested hill and crank out the workboat. You should be able to get to pop 2, working the crabs and the forested plains hill until Bronze Working is in (sped up by the crab tile gold) and you can chop out the henge pretty quickly and use the whip if necessary. If someone cares to crunch the numbers, I think this should get you your wonder very speedily and prep you nicely to find your copper and get those gallic warriors going.

Obviously, depending on what your scout finds, the game plan should change accordingly.
 
I'd settle in place and then use judgment as to the best way to explore the land that you don't show via culture.

With fishing->mining->wheel you'll be set for a little while with food, hammers and commerce in your capital plus keeping your worker busy.

Your capital would make for a excellent super-city with settled prophets, IW and Wall Street, so going for Stonehenge and possibly ToA are definate possibilities. Silver, Food and Hills should make this possible, no?

I'd pickup archery if only because you already have hunting and the saved hammers can go toward the wonders early on.

With the plains/hill/forest I'd work it and build a scout and a warrior until you get fishing then a workboat and a worker while researching mining. Complete SH, get archery and polytheism while settling a couple more cities then put your capital on GPP/Wonder production while the others take over further expansion.
 
Build: Stonehenge-->swap to workboat-->stonehenge

You should be able to get to pop 2, working the crabs and the forested plains hill until Bronze Working is in (sped up by the crab tile gold) and you can chop out the henge pretty quickly and use the whip if necessary.

Nice idea, but you need a worker if you're going to chop, so it then becomes Stonehenge -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and by that time, you probably want a Warrior anyway for Happy, so it's Warrior -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and if we're leaving it that late to start Stonehenge, Sis may as well just end the session when the Worker's done and let us look at the map.

Warrior/WB (or 2)/Worker/Discuss still strikes me as the most versatile start.
 
I'll be interested to see how the "No Technology Brokering" works out. I would have voted against it. I'm not a fan of that option in general, and for this game in particular, I worry that it may backfire on you.

In any game, it just seems strange to me. Why would you disable such a critical part of the game? There's no "no building workers" option. There's no "no resource trading" option. There's no "no boats" option. Why should there be an option for no technology trading? Anyway ...

For this game, it seems like you've removed one of the key benefits of an aggressive war posture. Lots of wars can hurt your economy in all kinds of ways -- troop upkeep, supply costs, over-expansion, war weariness, delayed infrastructure building, diplomatic troubles, etc. One way to remedy that is to extract technologies as part of a peace treaty. If you don't allow yourself that luxury, you might be screwed.

We'll see ...
 
Depending on the surrounding tiles I would possibly still go for worker first. Techs Fish/Mining/BW and use the silver mine to get the first work boat out. It would probably mean an idle worker for a while but with the quicker teching you could still find him/her something to do.

So possibly worker/wb/wb/warriors, techs as above.
 
Nice idea, but you need a worker if you're going to chop, so it then becomes Stonehenge -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and by that time, you probably want a Warrior anyway for Happy, so it's Warrior -> WB -> Worker -> Stonehenge - and if we're leaving it that late to start Stonehenge, Sis may as well just end the session when the Worker's done and let us look at the map.

Warrior/WB (or 2)/Worker/Discuss still strikes me as the most versatile start.

Good point - although you could whip away the unhappy once BW/Slavery comes in, no? SH would immediately negate the whip unhappy with a charismatic monument.

So, yes... it might be easier to go Warrior -> WB -> Stonehenge and use the warrior - not for garrison duty, but to help Sis steal a worker from a neighbor to come in for the chop! :lol:
 
an average start for an average leader :)

normally i always say worker first. this time though, warrior is better
 
Spoiler :
Sisiutil waits a while to develop an economy and it looks like this game is obviously unwinnable until he picks a major religion to ally with and then eventually consume. After taking the holy shrine, the economy rapidly stabilizes and the now much larger empire techs rapidly to something nifty which is used to a domino effect for further world conquest.


You have a zillion trees. That means the map generator thought that your starting location was poor and gave you lots of trees to compensate. You have silver in the BFC, so settle in place, tech Mining and then BW IMMEDIATELY, chop/whip a settler (since you don't have Copper in the BFC barring some miracle of an unforested hill outside of your current view). Mining the Silver will buy some happyness and a pair of workers can slide the mine in among the chopping mania. :)

Tech roads after the Bronze Working go grab some Copper. Your nearest coastal neighbor is crying out to be taken even if it's Tokugawa settled on a hill. Everyone will have a better capital site than you, so you had better chop out an army immediately so that you can go take some useful land before your very temporary advantage bought by the trees is lost.

Also, the spoiler wasn't really a spoiler. Just a prediction of how this game will go based on prior games. :)

One final thought: It takes a worker a turn to move into a forest. I'm normally a fan of putting multiple workers on a tile to get that tile improved/worked as soon as possible, but on Epic, it takes 1 turn to move to a forest and 5 turns to chop it. It takes 2 workers each 1 turn to move to the same forest and 2.5 turns to chop it. That means chopping individual is 17% more efficient and you don't lose any turns on tiles worked because you're not chopping the forests to work the tiles. You're chopping the forests to get the hammers for Axemen or Stonehenge.


...also, it might be worth chopping out Stonehenge because you'll have a good chance of capturing a holy city and getting a very early Great Priest will take a lot of the economic pressure off of your rapid expansion.
 
Mining->fishing->BW
Worker->WB-WB->warrior->warrior->

Unless you want a shot at Henge, then worker->warrior->Wb->Henge

I am advocating mining and a worker first because getting that silver online really compensates for the crappy starting techs. It gets you BW faster while the hammers will help regardless.

Stonehenge really depends on whether you have room to rex. by the time the worker is done, you should know what the immediate surrounding terrain is like.
 
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