ALC Game #26 Pre-Game Show: Dutch/Willem

[Lord Parkin]

All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #26 - Dutch/Willem van Oranje​

First of all, for those of you wondering - no, I'm not Sisiutil. As of Game 25, Sisiutil has decided to retire from the ALC series. You can read more about the reasons behind his retirement in the first post of the ALC Bullpen thread (click here).

But even though Sisiutil is retiring from the series, many people (including Sisiutil himself) have expressed their desire that the ALC series should continue... right through the remaining 27 leaders! Hence, from this game onwards, a few experienced and dedicated CFC members (including myself) will be taking the liberty of writing up alternate ALC games. (In other words, one person might do game 26, another game 27, and so on.) None of us are Sisiutil, so we may have slightly different styles of writing and storytelling to what you've been used to in the past - but nevertheless, the series will continue to be fun, entertaining and informative!

Anyway, I digress. To the discussion for Game 26!

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Willem van Oranje, leader of the Dutch - one of the new leaders added in the Beyond the Sword expansion pack. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit this particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, along with the most recent official patch (3.17). I'm not using any unofficial patches or any other mods.

Here's the fact sheet:

• Traits: Financial (+1 on plots with 2 or more ) and Creative (+2 per city; double production speed of Theatre, Colosseum, Library)
• Starting Techs: Fishing and Agriculture
• Unique Unit: East Indiaman (Replaces Galleon; Strength: 6, Movement: 4, Cargo Space: 4, Cost: 80 ; Unique Characteristic: Can explore rival territory)
• Unique Building: Dike (Replaces Levee; Cost: 180 ; Unique Characteristics: +1 to water tiles and river tiles; can be built in any city next to a river OR a lake OR the coast)

Willem's generally agreed to be a fairly strong leader. The Financial trait gives him a significant economic boost, while the Creative trait means he doesn't have to take the time to create cultural buildings in newly built (or conquered!) cities. He also gets cheap Theatres and Colosseums, which are useful in times when war weariness gets high (or happiness gets low). Most importantly though, the Creative trait makes one of the best economic buildings of the early game - the Library - extremely cheap. Coupled with the extra gold from the Financial trait, this will make for a rather nice early game research boost, as well as the opportunity to get some early Great Scientists if we so desire! Writing should probably be an early priority for us in this game.

The starting techs are reasonable. Fishing, of course, will only be useful if we happen to start on the coast - but with a decent coastal map (which we'll want for getting good use out of Willem's UU and UB), we'll have a good chance of getting a coastal start. So Fishing may prove to be very useful after all. Our other starting tech is Agriculture, which is a fairly decent all-around tech. We'll be able to build farms straight away if we have any grains, and will be able to research quickly to Animal Husbandry if we have any livestock around.

No Mysticism means we'll definitely skip the early religions - but that's generally a given on the high difficulty levels anyway, since you often can't beat the AI's research bonuses. No Mining means a slightly longer trek to the ever-useful Bronze Working, but we can deal with that. No Hunting means we'll start with a Warrior rather than a Scout, so won't do as well out of huts (nor get as many of them). And without The Wheel, we won't be able to hook up any resources straight away that aren't on rivers or under cities - but that's fine, we'll research it when we need it.

Willem's UU, the East Indiaman, has the distinction of being one of only two naval unique units in the game. It packs a fairly powerful punch, being 50% stronger than regular Galleons, so the East Indiaman tends to dominate the seas after Astronomy until the arrival of Frigates. It also has an extra cargo space compared to regular Galleons, and has the Caravel's ability of being able to enter anyone's borders - whether they agree to open them or not! Going for early Astronomy could be quite a good strategy in this game - especially since we'll be wanting to showcase the UU as much as possible (this is still the ALC, after all! ).

The UB for the Dutch - the Dike - is arguably one of the most powerful in the game. Sure, it comes in late - but it packs a big punch. A Levee replacement which gives +1 on both water tiles and river tiles sounds good enough. However, what you don't see in the Civilopedia (and what many people don't realise) is that unlike the Levee, you can build Dikes almost anywhere. As well as being available in cities built along rivers, Dikes can also be built in any city that is next to the coast - or even next to a lake! Just think about that for a moment - that's like free Moai Statues in every coastal city after Steam Power! And yes, you can also build a Dike in your actual Moai Statues city too, to get +2 on all water tiles (as well as river tiles, if it's built on a river). Clearly, Steam Power will be a priority for us once we reach the mid-game era!

Regarding the map settings for this game, the two suggestions made so far have been Archipelago and Big_and_Small. I'm open to both of these suggestions (I particularly like Big_and_Small), but feel free to make any other suggestions for map types too! Obviously the main criterion is that we'll want to choose a map with plenty of nice coast in order to maximise the use we'll get out of Willem's UU and UB. So keep in mind that anything along the lines of a Pangaea style map probably isn't the best idea! Personally I'm thinking that a Big_and_Small map with Snaky Continents might be nice. What do you guys think?

As for the other settings... the map size will be Standard, and the number of players will be the default 7. (I believe that's usual for the ALC games.) The game speed will be either Normal or Epic. (Willem's UU and UB are fairly late in the game, so we won't miss anything by going to Normal speed - however I can switch to Epic if most people would prefer that.) The difficulty level will be either Emperor or Immortal. (I'm comfortable with either; Emperor will lead to a slightly more laid-back game, but since Willem is a relatively powerful leader maybe we should stick with Immortal for a good challenge. What do you guys think?)

I'm intending on leaving all other settings as defaults, although I'm considering having vassal states off. Speak up if you disagree though! I'm happy to go with the popular vote. Also speak up if you want to propose any other settings I haven't mentioned.

As for a starting date... I intend to begin the game next weekend, or perhaps slightly early if I get a decent amount of spare time. Stay tuned!

Right, I think that's everything... feel free to post away!

 

[madscientist]

I orinially suggested archeopolego, but perhaps the Medium/Small map would be better. My expericne with Big/Little is sometimes you end up with a Pangea style game with one leader off shore or even isolated.

Otherwise one more comment about the UU. They pretty much make modern transports insignificant as they have the same cargo space, and can be easily protected by destroyers/battleships. That's a lot less gold for upgrades and fewer hammers rebuilding the transport navy.

Finally, move the starting warrior 1 spot NW!

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Willem on a watery map-you better go immortal on this one. And I'd leave vassals on-I'm a fan of keeping these as "pure" to a standard game as possible.

 

[Krill]

1. No mods whatsoever, not even BUG?
   
   
2. Picking the leaders or no?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you're good with leveraging the early commerce, perhaps it would be good to see how FIN can take abuse of coastal tiles to power early research.

 

[huerfanista]

Glad to see this series continue. I vote for emperor, so that the game will be relevant to a greater number of my fellow fanatics, and not just an entertaining look at a level that I can't play. I always enjoyed the ALCs as a learning experience that I could try to apply to my own games, and was somewhat dismayed when Sis moved up to immortal (which seems much more restrictive in terms of early-game strategy than lower levels). But regardless of what level you choose, Lord P., I'll be following this one with interest.

I'd second Mad's comments re: Big and Small. I seems to be unreliable at generating the kind of map that you seem to be interested in playing in this game. Too often B+S maps end up being "big continents and a couple of civs getting screwed on a big island" or "pangea plus a couple of dinky continents". M+S or archipelago would be better, I think. (You could also ask a neutral third-party to supply a decent map for this one - like maybe Sis ).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Dutch + water map is easy to begin with (relative to the normal difficulty of a given level), and LP is a very, very good player. He'll probably make it look easy even on immortal, so be careful what you wish for .

I'm willing to do a map if needed. The most fun ones IMO are often fractals - they offer a weird variety of maps and if you regen a lot through worldbuilder you can really get some strange things. However, the dike is not exactly impressive on anything but archipelago/water maps that force you to work a lot of water tiles over alternates. For that reason, maybe he SHOULD stick to a water map to highlight the UU/UB usage to an extent (The UU can do some funny stuff like DoW/blockade @ astro and really hose the AI).

 

[Trystero]

I'm intending on leaving all other settings as defaults, although I'm considering having vassal states off. Speak up if you disagree though! I'm happy to go with the popular vote. Also speak up if you want to propose any other settings I haven't mentioned.

My 2 cents:

If you are going to play the Dutch on a water map, perhaps you should consider leaving vassals on. You could always choose to not take vassals, but dealing with the annoyance of a civ you are warring with becoming a vassal of one of your other competitors is one of the challenges we should face in the All Leader Challenge, I think.

With regards to the map: I'm torn between seeing a sort of "classic" demonstration of how to use a leader/civ and seeing how to use those traits in more typical non-optimal game settings. Obviously pangea maps would defeat the purpose, but maybe something less stacked in Willem's favor would be good. I like TMIT's fractal idea. Maybe fractal with high sea levels? If choosing between Big_and_Small or Archipelago, I'd vote for the former.

 

[Sobric]

I'm intending on leaving all other settings as defaults, although I'm considering having vassal states off. Speak up if you disagree though! I'm happy to go with the popular vote. Also speak up if you want to propose any other settings I haven't mentioned.

Does this turn of the ability to create colonies? If so this might be worth while on an archipelago map (or any map with lots of islands). The AI tends to break off a ton a colonies, which don't add a whole lot to the game except to fill up the diplomacy screen.

 

[timmy827]

Vassal states off does indeed mean no colonies (and no colonial maintenance either). These are features I've never liked so I support LP's decision.

Agreed with TMIT - we have an already strong leader, with a civ particularly suited to water maps, which we already know the AI handles poorly. Definitely immortal.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Does this turn of the ability to create colonies? If so this might be worth while on an archipelago map (or any map with lots of islands). The AI tends to break off a ton a colonies, which don't add a whole lot to the game except to fill up the diplomacy screen.

Yes, it prevents colonies, and also prevents cities on other continents from incurring colonial maintenance. As you might imagine, it can have ridiculous potential on certain map scripts as a result, since 1st to astro (or portugal + optics) means you get a lot of viable land with minimal outlay. Developing it quickly is a problem unless experienced, though. I learned a lot about developing new cities to be useful quickly on high levels by reading through U Sun's walkthrough for BOTM 10 a few times.

Edit: vassals on allows for chaining capitulations and forced diplo wins, too. There are strategic reasons to play with them on or off. For G major 51 (deity/small/domination/normal) I turned them off so I could prat-rape and extort techs w/o anyone vassaling voluntarily in between. LP could pull something very similar with them off too ----> slap the target down to 1-2 cities, fleece all his techs, and destroy him with minimal consequences 10 turns later. Talk about backfill!

So there are pros and cons to it. I say we leave that one up to the host.

 

[Sobric]

Yes, it prevents colonies, and also prevents cities on other continents from incurring colonial maintenance. As you might imagine, it can have ridiculous potential on certain map scripts as a result, since 1st to astro (or portugal + optics) means you get a lot of viable land with minimal outlay. Developing it quickly is a problem unless experienced, though. I learned a lot about developing new cities to be useful quickly on high levels by reading through U Sun's walkthrough for BOTM 10 a few times.

Edit: vassals on allows for chaining capitulations and forced diplo wins, too. There are strategic reasons to play with them on or off. For G major 51 (deity/small/domination/normal) I turned them off so I could prat-rape and extort techs w/o anyone vassaling voluntarily in between. LP could pull something very similar with them off too ----> slap the target down to 1-2 cities, fleece all his techs, and destroy him with minimal consequences 10 turns later. Talk about backfill!

So there are pros and cons to it. I say we leave that one up to the host.

Oh I didn't know that! Best leave vassals on then, I think the annoyance of having your diplomacy screen filled up outweighs the lack of colonial maintenance.

I only dislike colonies so much because they are such boring carbon copies of their masters diplomatically. I wish there was some sort of higher colony/vassal penalty with the discovery of Nationalism or something. And I played a Ragnar archipelago map recently in which there was an equal number of colonies as players (on a large map!) eventually. I began with the intention of going for a domination win, but it felt like wack-a-mole so I got grumpy and went for space instead :-(

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh I didn't know that! Best leave vassals on then, I think the annoyance of having your diplomacy screen filled up outweighs the lack of colonial maintenance.

I only dislike colonies so much because they are such boring carbon copies of their masters diplomatically. I wish there was some sort of higher colony/vassal penalty with the discovery of Nationalism or something. And I played a Ragnar archipelago map recently in which there was an equal number of colonies as players (on a large map!) eventually. I began with the intention of going for a domination win, but it felt like wack-a-mole so I got grumpy and went for space instead :-(

I know how you feel...I tend to avoid these kinds of maps because of it. Vassals also drastically affect capitulation mechanics, such that it is impossible to cap masters of vassals unless both are incredibly weak relative to the rest of the world (aka might as well just kill one of them outright at least to have any chance of making a useful cap).

It would be kind of funny if LP managed to use the UU to grab so much colony-land that he wins UN from them alone though .

 

[Fluxx]

First of all I want to thank you for continuing this series. These series always have been very educative and above all entertaining to read.

On the map choice I would go wth med small. Archipelago can give very bad starts and the AI sometimes handle themselves horribly. Also playing Willem on Archipelago just feels horribly wrong.

On the vassals issue: The only reason I put vassals off is because of the broken mechanic that an AI you war with suddenly vassals to another AI who instantly DOW's too instead of making peace.

Also the relative ease with which other AI's seem to vassalise themselves sometimes turns me off, however it feels like taking away a big part of the game, and I always feel like cheating when I play without.

 

[madscientist]

Regarding vassals, I vote to allow them. The threat of an overpowered AI who vassaled an entire continent can make the game much more interesting.

 

[Tyrael]

I vote epic speed over normal. Seems like no units ever really get to shine on normal speed because teching and production goes so fast that things are obsolete fairly quickly. We want those East Indiamen to last awhile, don't we?

PS- Warrior 1E is underrated.

 

[pigswill]

Medium/Small seems like a good choice coz archipelago would be too easy.

In terms of difficulty level it probably doesn't matter too much. Immortal would be a more interesting game for you but emperor may be more acccessible to a larger segment of the forum to chip in with their ideas and opinions.

 

[oyzar]

I don't think it would be fair to the AI to only give them emperor bonuses. Start where sis left off and move up from there . Personally i like normal speed better. Big and small is fine, archpilago is a bit hard for the AI to handle. Vassal states off turns off colony maitenance which is a major part of the game for an island based game(wether it is a good or a bad part of the game is up for discussion though).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

On the vassals issue: The only reason I put vassals off is because of the broken mechanic that an AI you war with suddenly vassals to another AI who instantly DOW's too instead of making peace.

It isn't broken. Only civs that are willing to DoW on you in the first place will do that. It's just another form of dogpiling essentially. If you leave yourself open to civs that will declare on you, it only makes marginal difference whether they do it as a master or just another IMO.

Regarding vassals, I vote to allow them. The threat of an overpowered AI who vassaled an entire continent can make the game much more interesting.

I'm a lot more scared of an entire continent of 40 cities belonging to 1 AI than I am of an AI with vassals. The former gets unbelievable stacks and can reproduce them with ease, the latter can get spanked while its vassals pick their nose, assuming you're not in a tech hole.

Edit: But I'm still neutral to the decision overall. I haven't played a LOT of "no vassals" to see if it impacts the game greatly, but it might. Warmonger AIs could conceivably do better thanks to more land and more opportunities to get tech via extortion. Then again, it might just make them spin their wheels on 1 opponent. Don't know.

 

[DMOC]

Nice to see LP continuing the series.