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ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lord Parkin, May 27, 2009.

  1. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    All Leaders Challenge Game #26:
    Willem van Oranje/Dutch


    Pre-Game Thread

    Starting Position (this post, below)
    First Moves: 4000 BC
    Early Days: 4000 BC to 2825 BC (47 turns)
    Wars and Wonders: 2825 BC to 1375 BC (58 turns)
    England's End: 1375 BC to 800 BC (23 turns)
    Exploration and Expansion: 800 BC to 580 AD (84 turns)
    World War One: 580 AD to 1130 AD (46 turns)

    First of all, for those of you wondering - no, I'm not Sisiutil. ;) As of Game 25, Sisiutil has decided to retire from the ALC series. You can read more about the reasons behind his retirement in the first post of the ALC Bullpen thread (click here).

    But even though Sisiutil is retiring from the series, many people (including Sisiutil himself) have expressed their desire that the ALC series should continue... right through the remaining 27 leaders! Hence, from this game onwards, a few experienced and dedicated CFC members (including myself) will be taking the liberty of writing up alternate ALC games. (In other words, one person might do game 26, another game 27, and so on.) None of us are Sisiutil, so we may have slightly different styles of writing and storytelling to what you've been used to in the past - but nevertheless, the series will continue to be fun, entertaining and informative! :D

    The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is to play through a full game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, we will attempt to make the most of each leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. Saved game files, screenshots, and status reports will be posted here as the game progresses. This way everyone has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or to voice their frustration (or glee) when the person playing the game makes a mistake. :p

    Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make their own attempts at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", it is kindly requested that you refrain from posting spoilers - in other words, any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on - before that piece of information is common knowledge in this thread. We're trying to play these games as authentically as possible, so we don't want future events in the game spoiled for us, thanks. :)

    In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Willem van Oranje, leader of the Dutch. I'm playing the game using the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, its latest patch (3.17), and version 3.6 of the BUG mod. Note that I am not using any unofficial patches.

    The difficulty level is Immortal for this game, and the speed is Epic. We are playing on a Standard size map, which uses the Big & Small (Snaky Continents / Islands / Islands Mixed In) map script. The number of players has been set to 7 (i.e. 6 AI players), and a low sea level has been chosen to make the game slightly more challenging for us (as the Immortal AI tend to do better if they have more land available). All other game options not mentioned have been left at the default settings.

    These settings should lead to a map with a few large islands and several smaller islands. There should be around 1-4 civs per island, and many civs should be able to meet by coast. All in all, it should be a great game! :goodjob:

    The details of the map configuration are below.



    A reminder as to Willem's unique characteristics:



    So, we start with the ability to build Work Boats and farms, as well as Animal Husbandry being easily accessible if we need pastures. The UU (the East Indiaman) comes into play at Astronomy, improving on the Galleon. The UB (the Dike) comes fairly late in the game at Steam Power, but is extremely powerful. See the first post of this thread for a slightly more detailed discussion of the Dutch UU and UB. :)

    And now... the moment we've all been waiting for! :D Here is the starting location:



    Wa-wa-wee-wa! I like! :goodjob:

    Seriously though, that's a rather good starting position for Immortal difficulty on a non-regenerated map. A coastal location, with two Cows, and two sources of seafood! There's a plains-Incense, which will be handy for happiness post-Calendar. Plus there's a healthy selection of forests for chopping and hills for mining, so we'll have no shortage of early game hammers. And we can't even see everything yet! :D Far out, this could be one of the best starts I've ever seen for Immortal level. :)

    So, to the discussion! Oh, it's so nice to start with Fishing. :) I'm assuming we all agree to settle in place, since it gives us access to all the resources? Obviously Animal Husbandry is going to be a huge priority - I'm guessing we probably want to research that either first or (at latest) second. Thoughts? The other main question is what to build first: a Worker or a Work Boat? I genuinely can't tell which will be better at first glance, so I'll leave that question open for the moment and perhaps analyse it myself later. In the meantime, I'm sure you guys will keep yourselves busy deciding which order is likely to be the most beneficial (Work Boat -> Worker or Worker -> Work Boat... or even something else!). ;)

    The Warrior's move seems fairly clear... it should get the hut to the NW. There's a 0% chance of barbs, because the hut is within the "safe" zone. (For those who don't know, the "safe" zone for huts extends around your starting location to 1 tile beyond where legendary culture borders would be if you settled in place. It's a useful thing to keep in mind when you start with a Warrior instead of a Scout.)

    The initial saved game file from 4000 BC is below. I'll probably play the first round in the next day or two, so if you have some suggestions then make sure you speak up now or forever hold your peace! :)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Trystero

    Trystero Chieftain

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    I'm not an Immortal player yet, but methinks I'd settle in place. :) And I'd go work boat first while you grow to the happiness cap to spit out workers and settlers faster.

    Also, I'd vote for AH, if only to see if you have horses around to build chariots for scouting and dealing with potential barb axemen.

    PS - Yay! ALC is back! Thanks Lord Parkin. :thumbsup:
     
  3. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    My level is only Emperor but I would certainly settle in place and build a work boat first. I'd probably also choose to work one of the plains-forest-hills to get the boat out faster. I wouldn't build a worker first in this set-up: the best you can do with a worker is farm the cow tiles until you get animal husbandry or bronze working, and you can tech those while working the seafood and lake, possibly the hills.

    Good luck with the game, should be an interesting one!
     
  4. Sobric

    Sobric Chieftain

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    Blimey! I think AH should be researched first here, pasturing those cows will give Amsterdam a nice production bonus.

    I'm not sure on the exact science of micromanaging builds, but does putting a few hammers into a WB, then switching to worker when AH gets to within 1 turn of the projected Worker build make sense? It puts a few hammers into an early WB and a bit of food for growth, and should ensure your worker doesn't idle for any turns.

    Also, I hope you don't mind a Noble/Prince players throwing in some ideas to an Immortal game. I'm kinda hoping I say something stupid so you lot correct me.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam GiftOfNukes

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    Unless you want to pull a Snaaty and move inland, in place looks to be the best bet. Moving W loses the better seafood, and cows are worth 3 yield improved so no settling there.

    Opening tech path is AH ----> mining/BW IMO. I don't feel like doing the math but I'd probably go fishboat 1st working the plains hill forest then improve the fish tile, build a worker, and go from there.
     
  6. mi6agent

    mi6agent Chieftain

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    AH and worker first . Work 2 cow and u can build a boat in no time
     
  7. TM Moot

    TM Moot Chieftain

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    Settle in place (although it would be nice to see what the blue circle (top right) is hinting at).
    Animal Husbandary.
    Workboat.
    Warrior 1NW!!
     
  8. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

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    I would settle in place too. Tech path seems rather obvious (AH>mining>BW). I think that based on Willem's starting techs that I would go WB > worker. Very solid starting location.
     
  9. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Assuming you settle in place, don't learn AH from the tribal village and there's nothing hidden in BFC you've got a couple of options assuming you research AH first.

    Worker first: 23 turns for worker (90/4), 27 turns for AH (243/9).

    WB first:12 turns for WB (45/4). If you work fish you get worker in 15 (90/6) (turn 27) and AH in turn 26. If you work clams you get worker in 18 (turn 30) and AH in turn 23.

    Best balance (assuming I got the figures right) is WB>worker, work fish and get worker and AH in turn 27. Given that there's not much for the worker to do before AH WB>worker is clearly superior. You get a free workboat and can work the fish to grow to pop2 while worker is improving the cows.
     
  10. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    Very nice start mate.

    With starts like this I actually prefer 2 WB, 1 worker, 1/2 warriors. settler when you hit cap 4.

    Early WB, means early high commerce, means better tech pattern and more diversity. Also food obviously helps your worker/settler count.
    2 Workboats because fish is offshore so only 1 coin but higher food rate, clam for 3 coins because of financial.
    Make sure you micro your city for the 2nd workboat so it pops out quickly.

    Tech pattern, AH, Mining, BW imho. If no Bronze is close and hunting resources are close follow up with hunting/archery because you went for the economic start.

    Good luck again! Looking forward to it
     
  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam GiftOfNukes

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    Cows are a 6 yield tile with f/h, clams are 4f...full half the surplus over pop working it when building workers/settlers, and commerce isn't overwhelmingly pressing early on. The only reason I'd want to work the fish before the cows is that the worker will be idle during the AH first start, both prior to AH and following improving the cows, whereas WB first gives us a 5 yield food tile and doesn't idle.

    Although pigswill actually did the math, I'm just eyeballing.
     
  12. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Growing to the happiness cap before building any Workers or Settlers probably isn't actually the best idea. That's size 4 (or 5 if we build a Warrior) before we'd get any Workers or Settlers. Not a great idea, especially with two plains-Cows hanging around. ;)

    Work Boat first is fine, but I think we should follow it in short order with a Worker.

    The twin cows are the main reason for researching AH first - without them it'd be more of a dubious move. But yes, it'll be a nice side effect that we'll reveal Horses very early on due to our tech path. :)

    No problem! It's my pleasure; I enjoy these games a lot too. :D

    Yep, absolutely. :)

    Thanks! :goodjob:

    This doesn't really make that much sense. The primary reason is that you're delaying the "reward" you get from the effort you put in - for example, you might get the Worker on turn 15 and the Work Boat on turn 20, instead of the Worker on turn 10 and the Work Boat on turn 20. So there's (almost) always no point to switching around builds unless you plan to complete the build you're switching to.

    There's also another, secondary reason to avoid switching builds - and that is hammer decay. After 10 turns of being put on hold, units that have been part-built will experience hammer decay; similarly, buildings and (I think) wonders and projects will experience hammer decay after 50 turns. What this means is - for instance - after 10 turns of not building a Work Boat you had 15 hammers invested in, you will lose 1-2 hammers per turn (can't remember exactly, there's a formula for it) until the Work Boat has 0 hammers invested in it, unless and until you start working on it again. So if you're putting any units on hold, it's a good idea to finish them again ASAP! (It's not such a big issue for buildings, where hammer decay is much slower.)

    I absolutely don't mind! I think the more people that comment on the game, the better. Also, a large part of the point of the ALC games is to help lower level players to advance up the ranks. And if you can freely ask questions and express your thoughts, it helps you to learn a lot more a lot faster! So definitely, feel free to participate in the discussion regardless of your skill level (and I encourage anyone else to do the same, as well!). :)

    Looks like a fairly sound analysis to me. It's what I would have intuitively thought, since usually when there's a Fish around and you have Fishing, it's worth doing the Work Boat before the Worker. :)

    Could be interesting. I think with the two powerful Cow tiles though, it'll be worth arranging to have a Worker on hand by the time we get Animal Husbandry. We can always build the second Work Boat immediately after the Worker if we want, and it'll go a heck of a lot faster with two 3 :food: 3 :hammers: tiles. ;)

    Well, unless there are Horses... remember we'll be able to see those fairly early on too. If we have Horses, then I don't think it's worth going for Archery, regardless of whether we have Copper or not.

    Yeah, this reasoning seems good to me as well. :)
     
  13. Jabah

    Jabah Chieftain

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    I would also settle first before doing all the math, because you never know, there could be a coastal fish in the fog (2E or NEE), which would add more power to Pigswill opening.
    (note that I didn't open the save, so I decline all responsability if you get another coastal clam :) )

    Edit
    While I am at it , is there any reason for poping the hut before or after settling.
    I think you can't have barb in any case, for different reasons (too close or no city), but will it change the other options probabilities (tech/map/gold).
    More likely to pop map could be a reason for oing it asap, but on the other hand, with this start, you might want to maximize your technology probabilities.
     
  14. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Excellent start. Amsterdam looks to be a production monster post Dutch UB. You may want to consider building the Moari Statues there also giving you 2 hammers per coastal tile, the cows, and at least 3 plains hills good for 4 hammers mined, and 5 with railroad. Depending on the map and future city sites you may want to relocate the capital. But that is rushing things, first settle in place.

    I vote a workboat first to kook up seafood for faster city growth and three commerce ASAP. You also can work a 3 hammer forrested plains hill to speed it out fast.

    I am not sure of the timing order in building as I am a marathon player, but next should be a worker. First tech should be Animal Husbandry.

    After AH I am not sure at Immortal. You may need protecting archers early so maybe hunting/archery. Or perhaps Mining/Bronze Working. You also probably want either sailing or the wheel to establish trade between cities.

    Question about the warrior. IS ther a benefit to settling the city before popping the hut, or should it be after, or does it not matter? I seam to recall that I had better chances to get a free tech after the capital was built since only then can you start teching.

    Good luck, looking foreward to the game!
     
  15. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    Thats the entire thing isnt it?

    Look you can have the workboat out by turn 12 on epic by working the plain hills. Worker build costs 23 turns?
    Go for the fish tile, so not only are you using a 6 yield tile instead of a 3 tile for 8 more turns your city will grow for 8 turns more, which is enough to hit pop 2. which gives you 24 (8*3) extra networth yield during that time.
    So now you have a city pop 2, 6 more yield and an investment in another workboat which will pop in 10 more turns.
    workboat hits, you hit pop 3, you build worker while working 3 tiles worth of 16 yield after 30 turns.
    A worker first build will net at the 28-29th turn one 6 yield tile?
    Not only that but after working the 2nd cow you wont have BW so that means idle worker turns. 21 turns to be exact.
    If you dont believe it by all means try it out for yourself
     
  16. Killroyan

    Killroyan Chieftain

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    What a great start. 2 sea food, 2 cows, a late happy resource, fresh water from lake and 3 plains hills in sight. At size 7 this baby will have a production base of 19 hammers!!! and will still be growing. That is just superb. Settling in place is the most logic thing to do. I will be following this with great interest. I hope you will make Sisiutil proud LP and thx for keeping the series going.

    P.s. settle the city first otherwise you can never pop a tech from a hut as far as I know.
     
  17. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    Huts can only give you techs you can research, and if you don't have a city yet you cannot research any techs. So popping the hut before the city is founded means you cannot get a tech from the hut.

    Whether that argues in favor or against is up to you.
     
  18. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    I would:

    Settle in place. Research AH. Build a WB off the plains hill and use it on the clams to power up early research. Build worker, improve cows and farm incense while researching Mining - BW. After that you might need Archery if horses or copper are not within easy reach. There's alot of techs you want fast here for a quick expansion and clams will help you with that. After BW the worker can chop out a 2nd WB.
     
  19. popejubal

    popejubal Chieftain

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    You can't get a tech if you pop the hut before you have any cities. This can actually be kind of nifty on Settler/Cheiftain since you get more workers/settlers that way. On Immortal, it seems like a no-brainer to settle first.

    Also, this is an absolutely outstanding starting city. It doesn't have gold or gems, but is does have a great production base and a great amount of food. There's enough food that you can easily grow past your happy cap, but there's also enough decent tiles that aren't food that you can work that you're not guaranteed to wipe out your :) in the way so many of my coastal seafood starts end up. I'll be very interested to see some micromanagement advice and discussion in the early turns of this game since there are lots of high yield tiles here. Maintaining a balance between growth to grab those high yield tiles and :) needed to sustain that growth will be very interesting.

    One thing that I'd like to advocate is a (relatively) early work boat that can be sent out as a scout. Even if a barbarian eats the workboat when it is half way around the continent, you'll still end up with an awful lot of explored land and probably a few AI civ contacts/trade routes. The earlier you get that workboat out exploring, the more time you'll have to explore without worrying about

    One last thought: could someone please go through a quick explanation of Barbarian sighting rules? I know that we can ignore barbarian attacks against the seafood here fairly easily if the Barbarian boats don't get an opportunity to come within x tiles of the seafood, but I don't recall the details. I don't know if that would be a factor in settling later cities or if it's something that will influence a decision on placement of fogbusting/scouting boats outside of our borders.
     
  20. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    A start like that is likely to yield a pretty close neighbor. It may be a moot point since it seems like the discussion is leaning towards 2 boats right away, but working clams will give you the financial commerce bonus while the fish will not. The city will hit the happy cap pretty soon so the extra turns of working commerce may help get a tech like BW sooner.
     

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