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ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lord Parkin, May 27, 2009.

  1. Sobric

    Sobric Chieftain

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    I'll vote for a rush as well. It allows us to block off the peninsular pretty easily, expanding into some nice spots later.

    If Lord Parkin is confident in rushing and still building the GLH than it will be a great showcase of his talent :)

    (Also, rushes are much more interesting to read than how LP MMs his cities for a GLH build).
     
  2. AlejDuke

    AlejDuke Chieftain

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    I think some exploration to the east is necessary, the amount and quality of land available to you to the east will definitely help your decision on whether or not to rush Liz immediately or wait a bit longer. Some chariots would be nice regardless your decision. As it stands, i think a more peaceful approach is best in the situation, in any case, Liz will not be around to use her beloved redcoats.

    on the other hand, there isn't a lot of forest between you and liz that would stall your 2-move chariot blitzkrieg ... tough call
     
  3. nokem

    nokem Chieftain

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    LP if you choose to rush I'd be interested to hear how you calculate how strong your attack force needs to be and when the right moment to attack is. I always build too many troops and delay too long, facing more cities and more advanced defenders when I get there.

    nokem
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    I also support a rush. :) It might not be the most efficient way to win the game but it's fun.
     
  5. tycoonist

    tycoonist Deity

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    1. chop out a couple of chariots
    2. block the hell outta lizzy
    3. build GLH
    4. settle cities
    5. tech to construction
    6. finish lizzy off.
     
  6. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    :agree: You don't need to have it one way (GLH, leave Liz alon e for now) or the other (chariot rush) - a chariot pin will let you have your cake and eat it too. ;)
     
  7. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Why are ppl in such a rush ( pun intended ) to kill Liz ?
     
  8. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Without exploration its premature to think that Liz can be blocked. She can be blocked on land but if there's islands reachable by galley she could expand just fine.
     
  9. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I vote for the strategy that gives Lord P the best chance at winning. The Dutch UU/UB come late, so there is no rush (as Rolo said, no pun intented).

    Liz may have land/islands to the west. However she has a good looking capital with the holy Hindu city!
     
  10. dirtyparrot

    dirtyparrot Upholding Brannigan's Law

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    I'm going to side with Rolo and Mad. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on one side Elizabeth who founded Hinduism (while she still can DOW you at pleased), is a decent techer and relatively peaceful, not to mention that there's a ton of jungle that needs to be cleared (so why not let her do it, build you a shrine, and maybe a couple wonders). On the other side, there are Mao and Alexander who won't hesitate to stab you in the back. I would much rather try to cozy up to Liz (who is bound to spread hinduism to you) than cast my lot with the other 2.

    1st contact with Alexander was at turn 20. I would like to know precisely where he is and if possible Mao. Alexander starts with scouts, so there is a chance that he's a fair distance away. I would settle the gems city to prevent Liz from taking it. Being Creative will quickly pop your borders.
     
  11. sfnhltb

    sfnhltb Chieftain

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    I think on Immortal they all start with scouts (and archers?) regardless of their normal base techs.
     
  12. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    2 scouts, 2 archers and a worker if I am not mistaken.

    The worker is really what gives immortal AI's such a quick start, and why I love getting one of their workers to get a lil advantage myself and steal the advantage from them :)
     
  13. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Thanks for your input, guys. Right now I'm thinking:

    - Current Warrior explores to the southeast to search for any Copper.
    - Current Worker starts chopping, then finishes pasture and connects it via road. After that, more chopping and mining.
    - We tech to The Wheel, followed by Sailing and Masonry. Iron Working could follow this if we have no Copper within easy reach.
    - Amsterdam builds a Warrior, then either another Warrior or part of a Barracks to get to size 4. At this point we build a Settler.
    - We settle aggressively to the west (barring any discovery of Copper to the immediate east) and try to block Liz off.

    The only major decision remaining seems to be whether to go for the Great Lighthouse strategy, or for the Chariot rush strategy. As some people have pointed out, it's unlikely that we can accomplish both. Personally, I'm leaning towards the Great Lighthouse strategy since a Chariot rush will be fairly costly (I'd expect a minimum of 4 Chariots per city would be needed). Besides, we can always rush Liz after we've got the Great Lighthouse. That way we get the wonder AND the territory. Of course, throughout all of this we need to bear in mind that Alex is nearby, and he's rather like Monty's right hand man. We'll have to keep a cautious eye on our western flank.

    I'll respond more directly to some of your posts soon. :)
     
  14. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    I wouldn't rely on Liz having no Copper - we can't see many of her tiles, and I've seen plenty of Immortal AI starting with Copper in their capital's radius. Still, she doesn't appear to have Bronze Working... yet.

    I don't think I agree with going for HBR... I think it'd be preferable to check if we've got any Iron first. Besides, I've always had reservations about HBR since it's a dead-end tech. (Although I guess it still has trade value.)

    That's a very valid point. Of course, it all depends on where Liz is settling... it'll still be a few turns before we can get a Settler in the area, and she may have blocked us off already by then.

    She certainly doesn't have BW yet, although I suspect she might not be far off. Once she can pop-rush Archers, things become a lot harder... and if she has access to Copper, we can forget about it.

    She's as close as we're likely to get on this kind of map. Plus, if we found a second city near to her, she'll seem much closer. I don't think distance is a good argument against rushing, because she's really rather close. (And of course, we'll have Sailing soon, which will mean we can connect up any of her cities that we take fairly quickly.)

    Avoiding the GLH because it's too powerful? Sorry, but I've already said that my aim isn't to play a variant where I deliberately ignore a certain strategy because it's very good. The only reason I'd pass on the GLH would be if another strategy - ie rushing Liz - looked like it would yield a greater net return.

    Pottery/Writing are certainly techs that we want to think about in the not-too-distant future though. Depending on where the AI are at that point, I'd consider going for Alphabet too, since we already know 3 rivals and trading could be valuable.

    I don't think I'd want to whip this capital below size 4, just because of the fact that it has 4 particularly powerful tiles to work at the moment. But certainly growing to size 5 would be reasonable, and whipping from size 6 to 4 could work too.

    Problem is another Worker delays a Settler, and we probably need to get out a Settler ASAP if we want to have any chance of blocking Liz off.

    Very true - if we can manage to settle the Gems spot (which by the way I'm dubious about), then that gives an extra incentive to get IW as soon as possible.

    I tend to agree with 3 Warriors: one to defend the capital, one to explore west, and one to keep track on Liz to the east (as well as guarding the Settler if we send it that way).

    Only issue with the Worker going to the hill is that it'll delay hooking up the Horses, because as you note yourself, it'll take a while to chop + mine on Epic.

    Have you tested this? If it'll be only a turn or two of delay in hooking up the Horses after the chop + mine, maybe it'd be worth getting that mine in place. It'd certainly be useful as soon as we get to size 5. (Then again, size 5 is still a little while away if we're going to build a Settler or Worker at size 4.)
     
  15. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    We couldn't really have gone for a Settler any earlier. When we started the second Work Boat we were at size 1 with 0 food... not exactly a great point to start building a Settler. ;)

    Chopping out a Settler is definitely a move I agree with. We really need him ASAP.

    I think we should wait until we can actually build some Chariots before thinking about swapping the exploring Warrior for an exploring Chariot. And actually, personally I'd prefer to have a Warrior exploring and an extra Chariot at home to fend off barbs, than to have a Chariot exploring and a Warrior to fend off barbs.

    She might have already settled Horses, but if not I'll definitely take those away from her.

    Waiting for a Cat/Ele war sounds like a fairly decent plan if we want to go for the GLH strategy.

    I definitely wouldn't rely on Liz building the GLH for us, since there are 5 other AI nations in this game. Not exactly great odds.

    Besides, Liz isn't going to complete the GLH before we rush her, if that's what we choose to do. And if we're not rushing her OR building the GLH, then what the heck are we doing? :crazyeye:

    Okay, sure... how do I do that though? :)

    How do I do that?

    I think we should at least TRY to beat out Liz to the Gems/Horses, if she hasn't already settled there. No sense in not giving it a shot. Of course, if she's already settled that location, then Ivory/Rice could be an okay spot I suppose... although not exactly ideal. If we find Copper to the east, I'd take that spot instead any day. ;)

    Glad you liked it. :D

    Absolutely agree. Of course, GLH >> Colossus, but in general we should be aiming to highlight the leader's traits, so either way an economically-orientated strategy makes sense.

    Warrior/Settler won't give us enough time to grow to size 4, I think. We'd need Warrior/Warrior/Settler.

    No point in even considering rushing Alex until we know where he is. Let's focus on Liz first if we're rushing anyone, I think. ;)

    I think we have a 0% chance of settling all those cities before Liz. She's probably already settled at least one of them anyway. ;)

    But thanks for the dotmap anyway, I think it'll be a good guide to follow once Liz is gone.

    Thanks for the reminder about the Lighthouse first, had half-forgotten about that. Yes, we'd need to start a Lighthouse pretty much as soon as we get Sailing if we want a shot at the GLH.
     
  16. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Fair point. Although remember we can still kill Liz AFTER the GLH. That's what I'm leaning towards, because it seems we get the best of both worlds that way. Plus, as you note, a Chariot rush has several risks... and even in the best case scenario (Liz doesn't get BW / doesn't have Copper), we're still going to lose quite a lot of Chariots before making any gains.

    Yeah, absolutely. I do think that going for the economic route is a sound strategy to maximise the Financial trait (and get our UU/UB sooner). :)

    Seems like opinion is fairly divided as to which strategy people would like to see played out. :lol:

    I'm impressed at your confidence in me. :p However, there are certain physical limitations in the game, the main one being you can't build two things at once. Even I can't build a dozen Chariots while managing a Lighthouse and Great Lighthouse simultaneously. :crazyeye:

    As a quick general idea, you want to have at least 2 troops for every 1 defender the AI has per city. (Preferably more as backups.) If you get to the point where you have 3 troops for every 1 defender, it's almost definitely time to attack (assuming the AI isn't an era ahead of you or anything :p ).

    Pretty much exactly what I'm thinking right now. ;)

    :lol:

    But seriously, gaining several bonus cities (including a holy city) very early on would certainly be rather valuable. I suspect that's why many people are in favour of rushing.

    Very good point. Liz will almost certainly be able to reach other islands via Galley, so it may not be possible to completely eradicate her early on. However, on the flipside, once we have her capital the game will be all but over for her regardless. ;)

    Of course, regardless of what strategy we choose, it seems we're likely to want to war with Liz by shortly after Construction at the latest. So any "cozying up" to Liz will probably be short-lived.

    Definitely - I think everyone wants to know that. ;)

    Assuming, of course, she hasn't already taken it (which is very possible).

    Yes, they do (as Fluxx has said).

    Heh. Although I wouldn't want to think about stealing a Worker before we have Chariots standing by in this game.
     
  17. pindicator

    pindicator Emperor

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    Normally I'd agree with this, but it also seems that you are looking at Construction as a potential window of attack against Lizzy. Since you have the elephant resource nearby, you are going to want HBR anyway to make elephant units -- might as well take advantage of the opportunity to make horse archers as well.

    I think you should go for Iron Working first -- locating metal and unlocking those gems are too strong to delay -- but I wouldn't wait too long after IW to pick up HBR.
     
  18. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Right, that's a good point. However, I still think it'd be better to delay HBR until closer to the time that we want Elephants.

    Either way though, that's something that can probably be decided in round 3, so we still have time to discuss how soon we want HBR. :)

    Remember IW won't be of so much use if we find Liz has already settled the Gems... here's to hoping that she hasn't. ;)
     
  19. jamezzz6

    jamezzz6 Chieftain

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jamezzz6
    for the 5th question, let the worker build a mine on the tile SW of it, this will get the city to grow right after the 2nd warrior, and then gets the chop in the Settler-build.

    The mine is done one turn after the wheel is done, so then the worker can road to the horses and pasture them.



    Have you tested this? If it'll be only a turn or two of delay in hooking up the Horses after the chop + mine, maybe it'd be worth getting that mine in place. It'd certainly be useful as soon as we get to size 5. (Then again, size 5 is still a little while away if we're going to build a Settler or Worker at size 4.)


    Yes, I did
     
  20. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    I was thinking more along the lines, build the units needed to fog and spawnbust while growing to size 3 then build settler from clams and improved cows. Right now barbs are spawning there, this is going to jeopardize the spot since Liz might claim it.
     

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