ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

I'll vote for a rush as well. It allows us to block off the peninsular pretty easily, expanding into some nice spots later.

If Lord Parkin is confident in rushing and still building the GLH than it will be a great showcase of his talent :)

(Also, rushes are much more interesting to read than how LP MMs his cities for a GLH build).
 
I think some exploration to the east is necessary, the amount and quality of land available to you to the east will definitely help your decision on whether or not to rush Liz immediately or wait a bit longer. Some chariots would be nice regardless your decision. As it stands, i think a more peaceful approach is best in the situation, in any case, Liz will not be around to use her beloved redcoats.

on the other hand, there isn't a lot of forest between you and liz that would stall your 2-move chariot blitzkrieg ... tough call
 
LP if you choose to rush I'd be interested to hear how you calculate how strong your attack force needs to be and when the right moment to attack is. I always build too many troops and delay too long, facing more cities and more advanced defenders when I get there.

nokem
 
1. chop out a couple of chariots
2. block the hell outta lizzy
3. build GLH
4. settle cities
5. tech to construction
6. finish lizzy off.
 
1. chop out a couple of chariots
2. block the hell outta lizzy
3. build GLH
4. settle cities
5. tech to construction
6. finish lizzy off.

:agree: You don't need to have it one way (GLH, leave Liz alon e for now) or the other (chariot rush) - a chariot pin will let you have your cake and eat it too. ;)
 
Without exploration its premature to think that Liz can be blocked. She can be blocked on land but if there's islands reachable by galley she could expand just fine.
 
I vote for the strategy that gives Lord P the best chance at winning. The Dutch UU/UB come late, so there is no rush (as Rolo said, no pun intented).

Liz may have land/islands to the west. However she has a good looking capital with the holy Hindu city!
 
I'm going to side with Rolo and Mad. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on one side Elizabeth who founded Hinduism (while she still can DOW you at pleased), is a decent techer and relatively peaceful, not to mention that there's a ton of jungle that needs to be cleared (so why not let her do it, build you a shrine, and maybe a couple wonders). On the other side, there are Mao and Alexander who won't hesitate to stab you in the back. I would much rather try to cozy up to Liz (who is bound to spread hinduism to you) than cast my lot with the other 2.

1st contact with Alexander was at turn 20. I would like to know precisely where he is and if possible Mao. Alexander starts with scouts, so there is a chance that he's a fair distance away. I would settle the gems city to prevent Liz from taking it. Being Creative will quickly pop your borders.
 
I think on Immortal they all start with scouts (and archers?) regardless of their normal base techs.
 
2 scouts, 2 archers and a worker if I am not mistaken.

The worker is really what gives immortal AI's such a quick start, and why I love getting one of their workers to get a lil advantage myself and steal the advantage from them :)
 
Thanks for your input, guys. Right now I'm thinking:

- Current Warrior explores to the southeast to search for any Copper.
- Current Worker starts chopping, then finishes pasture and connects it via road. After that, more chopping and mining.
- We tech to The Wheel, followed by Sailing and Masonry. Iron Working could follow this if we have no Copper within easy reach.
- Amsterdam builds a Warrior, then either another Warrior or part of a Barracks to get to size 4. At this point we build a Settler.
- We settle aggressively to the west (barring any discovery of Copper to the immediate east) and try to block Liz off.

The only major decision remaining seems to be whether to go for the Great Lighthouse strategy, or for the Chariot rush strategy. As some people have pointed out, it's unlikely that we can accomplish both. Personally, I'm leaning towards the Great Lighthouse strategy since a Chariot rush will be fairly costly (I'd expect a minimum of 4 Chariots per city would be needed). Besides, we can always rush Liz after we've got the Great Lighthouse. That way we get the wonder AND the territory. Of course, throughout all of this we need to bear in mind that Alex is nearby, and he's rather like Monty's right hand man. We'll have to keep a cautious eye on our western flank.

I'll respond more directly to some of your posts soon. :)
 
3. Techs, I'd say Wheel-> sailing-> masonry -> HBR(?) chances to me seem quite good that Lizzy has no copper, which would make a horsearcher rush seem like a walk in the park. I'm normally not playing on immortal so I don't know how fast everything is enveloping,
I wouldn't rely on Liz having no Copper - we can't see many of her tiles, and I've seen plenty of Immortal AI starting with Copper in their capital's radius. Still, she doesn't appear to have Bronze Working... yet.

I don't think I agree with going for HBR... I think it'd be preferable to check if we've got any Iron first. Besides, I've always had reservations about HBR since it's a dead-end tech. (Although I guess it still has trade value.)

There is one perfect place to block Liz off in the west, on the river directly east of her horses. Being creative, your borders will pop leaving her with very little land (and no horses assuming there are none to her west), and completely cut off. If this is done Liz can sit idle there a long time before she tried to expand and will be content with a few cities, all the time letting her build an impressive city structure for you to claim post-construction (as well as perhaps the Hindu shrine).
That's a very valid point. Of course, it all depends on where Liz is settling... it'll still be a few turns before we can get a Settler in the area, and she may have blocked us off already by then.

Alternatively you can put everything into chariots and rush the blazes out of her, my guess is she may NOT have BW yet and not be able to whip defender. Also if she has a second city founded she has committed hammers to a settler, increasing the chances of a very successful rush. We also know that there are no leaders to the west due to the eps.
She certainly doesn't have BW yet, although I suspect she might not be far off. Once she can pop-rush Archers, things become a lot harder... and if she has access to Copper, we can forget about it.

Amsterdam: Second worker, a warrior or 2, then a settler. A rush would work but she's kinda far. We don't know if she has copper in her BFC.
She's as close as we're likely to get on this kind of map. Plus, if we found a second city near to her, she'll seem much closer. I don't think distance is a good argument against rushing, because she's really rather close. (And of course, we'll have Sailing soon, which will mean we can connect up any of her cities that we take fairly quickly.)

Techs: The Wheel, Either sailing or pottery/writing. Sailing for the 3-insta commerce coast tiles pottery for financial cottages or writing for creative libraries. GLH I'd avoid because it's too powerful on this kind of script imho.
Avoiding the GLH because it's too powerful? Sorry, but I've already said that my aim isn't to play a variant where I deliberately ignore a certain strategy because it's very good. The only reason I'd pass on the GLH would be if another strategy - ie rushing Liz - looked like it would yield a greater net return.

Pottery/Writing are certainly techs that we want to think about in the not-too-distant future though. Depending on where the AI are at that point, I'd consider going for Alphabet too, since we already know 3 rivals and trading could be valuable.

Depends on plans if you plan whip or grow capital to size five next warrior will sit for happiness. Will you build second is matter of long term plans... Probably scouting closer area is better.
I don't think I'd want to whip this capital below size 4, just because of the fact that it has 4 particularly powerful tiles to work at the moment. But certainly growing to size 5 would be reasonable, and whipping from size 6 to 4 could work too.

I would plan second worker as soon as cap grows to size four. It will happen same times as warrior is finished if you switch one of cows to fish.
Problem is another Worker delays a Settler, and we probably need to get out a Settler ASAP if we want to have any chance of blocking Liz off.

most likely wheel... Although if you plan to settle that gem spot soonish it might be case of IW. double riverside gems while financial is so sweet...
Very true - if we can manage to settle the Gems spot (which by the way I'm dubious about), then that gives an extra incentive to get IW as soon as possible.

Presumably there is quite a bit of territory to the east, as we have met two civs from that direction, so it might be worth getting at least one more scout (not an actual Scout of course) out in that direction soon so we get a better lay of the land, find where the other AIs are (if they are close - they arrived at 20 and 22 turns, so they could be fairly far off, especially if it was Scouts, couldn't see), depending on how direct a route they took. A second warrior to defend the city and avoid the Republican voters in the city being unhappy would also make sense.
I tend to agree with 3 Warriors: one to defend the capital, one to explore west, and one to keep track on Liz to the east (as well as guarding the Settler if we send it that way).

As for the worker I would normally prefer to chop the hills first, so that when the worker has time he can put mines on them, as that increases our tile working options to switch to a higher production mix when we don't want as much food (i.e. in between whips). That is some turns away from chopping though, and with 4 good tiles and population capped at 5 (and probably 4 effectively while whip unhappiness is running) until HR/trading/new resources, maybe +1H +1C that we might not always be using isn't worth it. Still, we are likely to want to switch away from food a fair bit of the time, so at least chopping the plains/hill/river seems like it is worth the loss of 1 worker turn.
Only issue with the Worker going to the hill is that it'll delay hooking up the Horses, because as you note yourself, it'll take a while to chop + mine on Epic.

for the 5th question, let the worker build a mine on the tile SW of it, this will get the city to grow right after the 2nd warrior, and then gets the chop in the Settler-build.

The mine is done one turn after the wheel is done, so then the worker can road to the horses and pasture them.
Have you tested this? If it'll be only a turn or two of delay in hooking up the Horses after the chop + mine, maybe it'd be worth getting that mine in place. It'd certainly be useful as soon as we get to size 5. (Then again, size 5 is still a little while away if we're going to build a Settler or Worker at size 4.)
 
You should claim those gems and the horse to the west asap, I wouldn't have went second WB here, I hope you're not too late to claim it from Liz.
We couldn't really have gone for a Settler any earlier. When we started the second Work Boat we were at size 1 with 0 food... not exactly a great point to start building a Settler. ;)

You'll want warriors on the way to fog and spawnbust. Chop out a settler then send him and the worker west while you build a second worker in cap.
Chopping out a Settler is definitely a move I agree with. We really need him ASAP.

Edit: Send the east warrior home and use as garrison unless he's close to woodsman 2, a chariot will quickly do his job, you need warriors to fog/spawnbust to the west to secure your expansion.
I think we should wait until we can actually build some Chariots before thinking about swapping the exploring Warrior for an exploring Chariot. And actually, personally I'd prefer to have a Warrior exploring and an extra Chariot at home to fend off barbs, than to have a Chariot exploring and a Warrior to fend off barbs.

I say rex, either Block off land from Elizabeth, or let her settle/develop it for you. Keep horses away from her, but wait till Construction for Cats/Ele's to take her out, on a one way date.
She might have already settled Horses, but if not I'll definitely take those away from her.

Waiting for a Cat/Ele war sounds like a fairly decent plan if we want to go for the GLH strategy.

Great Lighthouse, as most cities will be coastal, its worth thinking about, maybe Lizzie will build it for you? She has a coastal city in London.
I definitely wouldn't rely on Liz building the GLH for us, since there are 5 other AI nations in this game. Not exactly great odds.

Besides, Liz isn't going to complete the GLH before we rush her, if that's what we choose to do. And if we're not rushing her OR building the GLH, then what the heck are we doing? :crazyeye:

1) Change all era's to White, you know what era your in without looking at dates (sorry BUG developers, but that's my opinion, I :love: BUG)
Okay, sure... how do I do that though? :)

4) I like to set out cities to settle in waves, ie Green for 1st, yellow 2nd, red 3rd, white fillers. (P.S. Can I change the colour order in bug??, ie default Green)
How do I do that?

5) 2nd city should be Ele/Rice, I dont' think you'll have time to beat AI, don't they start with 2 Scouts, 1 worker on Immortal setting. Lizzie, will be building a settler now as we speak, to go with the 4 Archers she probably has in capital.
I think we should at least TRY to beat out Liz to the Gems/Horses, if she hasn't already settled there. No sense in not giving it a shot. Of course, if she's already settled that location, then Ivory/Rice could be an okay spot I suppose... although not exactly ideal. If we find Copper to the east, I'd take that spot instead any day. ;)

Nice start LP! I like the little bits of leader dialog. :)
Glad you liked it. :D

Normally, my inclination would be to chariot rush Liz. If you eliminate her you'd have some nice territory (after IW) and a holy city. However, since this is an ALC game I vote for going to grab that gems site quickly (you're Creative!) and get the GLH or Colossus (you're Financial!). It seems to me that that approach would be more in line with the intent of the series, to highlight a leader's traits.
Absolutely agree. Of course, GLH >> Colossus, but in general we should be aiming to highlight the leader's traits, so either way an economically-orientated strategy makes sense.

You'll need to garrison a warrior by the time you get to size 4 (unless you are planning to immediately whip). And given my preference to grab the gems site I'd vote for warrior/settler or warrior/warrior/settler.
Warrior/Settler won't give us enough time to grow to size 4, I think. We'd need Warrior/Warrior/Settler.

Alex worries me as he's every bit the problem monty is, but chariot rushing him on immortal is excessively dangerous and it doesn't look like you know where he is. You can always just park archers to defend vs him if need be I guess.
No point in even considering rushing Alex until we know where he is. Let's focus on Liz first if we're rushing anyone, I think. ;)

basically i just went for the optimal pack-as-many-in in the west. this will be very good in the short run (and who needs the long run?). i think rushing is a good idea, but it is risky. if you can settle the cities marked peacefully (and you will have to be very aggressive) then i would wait until jumbos.
I think we have a 0% chance of settling all those cities before Liz. She's probably already settled at least one of them anyway. ;)

But thanks for the dotmap anyway, I think it'll be a good guide to follow once Liz is gone.

If you want Glight then you need to start working towards it pretty soon. May have time to get out a settler beforehand, something like warrior>settler>worker>lighthouse while researching wheel>sailing>masonry.
Thanks for the reminder about the Lighthouse first, had half-forgotten about that. Yes, we'd need to start a Lighthouse pretty much as soon as we get Sailing if we want a shot at the GLH.
 
Chariot rush is in fact somewhat risky but he's already got horses so he can start building them pre-2000 BC...if she doesn't have BFC copper he's probably got her since her unitprob is only 20. It's not THAT risky to hit with chariots. It might be more dangerous to get boxed in with fewer cities actually...although you can probably win this start either way.

Edit: I'd take a dead liz and a powerful financial grassland region over GLH any day. Good as GLH is, a dead AI without sacrificing much expansion is a huge boost.
Fair point. Although remember we can still kill Liz AFTER the GLH. That's what I'm leaning towards, because it seems we get the best of both worlds that way. Plus, as you note, a Chariot rush has several risks... and even in the best case scenario (Liz doesn't get BW / doesn't have Copper), we're still going to lose quite a lot of Chariots before making any gains.

Look it is still relatively risky, but the rewards can be great. Going for the peacefull way is also safe and can be succesfull.

It is all what you feel like and think is best for an ALC game.
Yeah, absolutely. I do think that going for the economic route is a sound strategy to maximise the Financial trait (and get our UU/UB sooner). :)

Personally I would like to see how to block now and take liz with construction later.
I have seen and done loads of chariot rushes but am not good at the second route.
I never seem to be able to fight at construction and end up going for lib and gunpowder.
AI's like to tech construction and trade it fairly late so I don't like self researching and end with it too late to matter.
The ALCs haven't actually had that many early rushes - I'm sure everyone here can remember a time Sisutil has dragged his feet in preparation for a war. How about showcasing the ruthless side of Civ and showing us how to pull the trigger once you've got an advantage? We can do a quick peaceful expansion once she's dead.
I would like to see a peaceful expansion and a shot at the GLH. A very valuable wonder (on water maps). You won't be able to build it if you go for the early rush.
I'll vote for a rush as well. It allows us to block off the peninsular pretty easily, expanding into some nice spots later.
Seems like opinion is fairly divided as to which strategy people would like to see played out. :lol:

If Lord Parkin is confident in rushing and still building the GLH than it will be a great showcase of his talent :)

(Also, rushes are much more interesting to read than how LP MMs his cities for a GLH build).
I'm impressed at your confidence in me. :p However, there are certain physical limitations in the game, the main one being you can't build two things at once. Even I can't build a dozen Chariots while managing a Lighthouse and Great Lighthouse simultaneously. :crazyeye:

LP if you choose to rush I'd be interested to hear how you calculate how strong your attack force needs to be and when the right moment to attack is. I always build too many troops and delay too long, facing more cities and more advanced defenders when I get there.
As a quick general idea, you want to have at least 2 troops for every 1 defender the AI has per city. (Preferably more as backups.) If you get to the point where you have 3 troops for every 1 defender, it's almost definitely time to attack (assuming the AI isn't an era ahead of you or anything :p ).

1. chop out a couple of chariots
2. block the hell outta lizzy
3. build GLH
4. settle cities
5. tech to construction
6. finish lizzy off.
Pretty much exactly what I'm thinking right now. ;)

Why are ppl in such a rush ( pun intended ) to kill Liz ?
:lol:

But seriously, gaining several bonus cities (including a holy city) very early on would certainly be rather valuable. I suspect that's why many people are in favour of rushing.

Without exploration its premature to think that Liz can be blocked. She can be blocked on land but if there's islands reachable by galley she could expand just fine.
Very good point. Liz will almost certainly be able to reach other islands via Galley, so it may not be possible to completely eradicate her early on. However, on the flipside, once we have her capital the game will be all but over for her regardless. ;)

I'm going to side with Rolo and Mad. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on one side Elizabeth who founded Hinduism (while she still can DOW you at pleased), is a decent techer and relatively peaceful, not to mention that there's a ton of jungle that needs to be cleared (so why not let her do it, build you a shrine, and maybe a couple wonders). On the other side, there are Mao and Alexander who won't hesitate to stab you in the back. I would much rather try to cozy up to Liz (who is bound to spread hinduism to you) than cast my lot with the other 2.
Of course, regardless of what strategy we choose, it seems we're likely to want to war with Liz by shortly after Construction at the latest. So any "cozying up" to Liz will probably be short-lived.

1st contact with Alexander was at turn 20. I would like to know precisely where he is and if possible Mao.
Definitely - I think everyone wants to know that. ;)

I would settle the gems city to prevent Liz from taking it. Being Creative will quickly pop your borders.
Assuming, of course, she hasn't already taken it (which is very possible).

I think on Immortal they all start with scouts (and archers?) regardless of their normal base techs.
Yes, they do (as Fluxx has said).

The worker is really what gives immortal AI's such a quick start, and why I love getting one of their workers to get a lil advantage myself and steal the advantage from them :)
Heh. Although I wouldn't want to think about stealing a Worker before we have Chariots standing by in this game.
 
I don't think I agree with going for HBR... I think it'd be preferable to check if we've got any Iron first. Besides, I've always had reservations about HBR since it's a dead-end tech. (Although I guess it still has trade value.)

Normally I'd agree with this, but it also seems that you are looking at Construction as a potential window of attack against Lizzy. Since you have the elephant resource nearby, you are going to want HBR anyway to make elephant units -- might as well take advantage of the opportunity to make horse archers as well.

I think you should go for Iron Working first -- locating metal and unlocking those gems are too strong to delay -- but I wouldn't wait too long after IW to pick up HBR.
 
Right, that's a good point. However, I still think it'd be better to delay HBR until closer to the time that we want Elephants.

Either way though, that's something that can probably be decided in round 3, so we still have time to discuss how soon we want HBR. :)

Remember IW won't be of so much use if we find Liz has already settled the Gems... here's to hoping that she hasn't. ;)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamezzz6
for the 5th question, let the worker build a mine on the tile SW of it, this will get the city to grow right after the 2nd warrior, and then gets the chop in the Settler-build.

The mine is done one turn after the wheel is done, so then the worker can road to the horses and pasture them.



Have you tested this? If it'll be only a turn or two of delay in hooking up the Horses after the chop + mine, maybe it'd be worth getting that mine in place. It'd certainly be useful as soon as we get to size 5. (Then again, size 5 is still a little while away if we're going to build a Settler or Worker at size 4.)


Yes, I did
 
We couldn't really have gone for a Settler any earlier. When we started the second Work Boat we were at size 1 with 0 food... not exactly a great point to start building a Settler. ;)

I was thinking more along the lines, build the units needed to fog and spawnbust while growing to size 3 then build settler from clams and improved cows. Right now barbs are spawning there, this is going to jeopardize the spot since Liz might claim it.
 
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