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ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lord Parkin, May 27, 2009.

  1. Palpster

    Palpster Chieftain

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    Hey LP, long time lurker chiming in here.

    I'm enjoying this game and your write-up very much. I've only recently returned to Civ IV and am a Noble/Prince player, but I'm learning a lot from all the discussions here. As for this game, both the GLH and chariot rush paths would probably teach me a thing or two so I don't really have a preference.

    Anyway, just saying I'm enjoying this, keep up the good work.
     
  2. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Technically speaking the Great Lighthouse doesn't really showcase Willem's strengths as it works just as well with any other civ or leader. Colossus on the other hand is stronger with a financial leader as ocean tiles become 3c instead of 1c.

    That doesn't mean that Glight is a bad move, it just means Glight depends on the map not the civ.
     
  3. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    If you decide to not rush, but go peacefull/lighthouse, I strongly urge you to wage war before riflemen or cannons.

    Not only will it make the game easier in this case, it makes it also much more interesting to watch ;)
     
  4. TM Moot

    TM Moot King

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    I don't think a rush is the optimal strategy just yet. Liz is quite a distance away, we have no bronze, and there may be a better target to the East anyway.:eek:

    I would utilise the CRE trait and try to block Liz of with a couple of well placed cities, keep the Warrior exploring the lands to the East, knock out a spare Workboat to recce the nearby islands, and chop/whip a Lighthouse and then the GLH in Amsterdam.:goodjob:

    Once the GLH is done, backfill any decent city spots and found some island cities. Take out a neighbour if necessary whist aiming for Optics/Lib & Astronomy.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    However many tiles her capitol is away, multiply it by .75 to account for epic speed, and suddenly it's not that far off.

    We're not talking about an axe rush, we're talking about a chariot rush. You don't need copper for that.
     
  6. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I would settle the good spots between us and Liz. I would settle 3 or 4 cities. The east must also be explored soon. There could be a good city spot out there.

    I would research IW, the ivory and the gems will increase the happy cap. If no iron, then develop Horse archers and elephants. If there is iron I would try and take down Liz between 2000BC and 1000BC. Combat swordsmen will have a high probablity against archers.
     
  7. TM Moot

    TM Moot King

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    We don't know for sure that Liz doesn't have bronze, our sword attack could get messy:cry:.
     
  8. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Why combat? :confused: City raider would do much better...

    Anyway - I'll try to play the next turn tomorrow, although no guarantees as I've got a very large workload at the moment. Might have to postpone it a day, but I'll see. :)
     
  9. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Take your time. It's better to get the next segment right than rushing into it.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I may be doing it wrong, but I tend to stack combat promos on my swordsmen. If I do raider at all its only with the first 1 or 2 that attack and they usually die. Combat is useful in the field whereas CR leaves you vulnerable. By the time my swordsmen hit combat III they have an 86 or 90% chance against a basic archer in a city.

    I had a similar setup to this over the weekend. I was Freddie vs Izzie. We were isolated. She founded a religion. I belined swords and she was dead by 450BC (normal speed) leaving me just her capitol with a religion in it.
     
  11. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    You'd get far better probabilities with city raider III - the percentage boosts to unit strength are much greater. As for your bolded concern, that's why you send accompanying units such as axes and spears so that your swords don't have to defend. Specialise!

    You may do this already, but it is often useful to wait until you know what your units will be used for before promoting them appropriately. Of course, the downside is that your units will be unpromoted if you are surprise attacked.
     
  12. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Combat 1 sword has the same chances against archer with city raider I sword as 10% of 6 is the same with 20% of 3.

    but obviouly CR II & III have better odds than combat 2 & 3.
     
  13. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    The Combat line of promotions are applied as you say, to the attacker's strength. However, the CR line, the Combat Type based promotions like Cover and Shock, and the Swordsman's inherent 10% city attack bonus are subtracted from the defender's bonuses.

    For example, let's compare a single promotion Swordsman going up against a no-promotion Archer. The Archer gets +50% city defense and +25% fortification bonus.

    Combat: 6 * 1.10 = 6.60 vs. 3 * 1.65 = 4.95, R = 1.33
    City Raider: 6 vs. 3 * 1.45 = 4.35, R = 1.37

    The R value (ratio of attacker strength to defender strength) tells you that the C1 promotion is better for the odds in this case. This ignores the fact that the CR1 promotion opens the possibility of the CR2 line should the unit survive and other such considerations.

    Edit: Fixed CR1 bonus (+20%). Also, in other cases (see below) the Combat line turns out to be better, such as when facing stronger defenders with high bonuses.
     
  14. sfnhltb

    sfnhltb Chieftain

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    CR1 is 20% and Swordsmen have an inbuilt 10% city attack, so I think the numbers are more like:

    Combat: 6 * 1.10 = 6.60 vs. 3 * 1.65 = 4.95, R = 1.33
    City Raider: 6 vs. 3 * 1.45 = 4.35, R = 1.38
     
  15. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    I am confused at the Swordsman discussion.

    A combat I Sword still has a +10% versus city, just like the CRI promoted has that default +10%, this is not an issue.

    A combai I add 0.6 to the attackers stength, while on the CR promotion there is a 20% decrease from the archer's defense or -0.6. I am sure I am missing something here, but at face value it looks like a push. Come CR II and III there is a big difference, but then the shield promotion comes into affect +25% versus 30% CRII although the shield is ineffective against mounted and melee units.

    Regarding the original post on combat 1 over CR, it was better protection in the field. Myself, I would rather have a Spear and axe in the stack, but I get the idea.
     
  16. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I usually dont leave my borders unless I have 2 axes and 2 spears ready to escort my swords. Even then I prefer the combat promos on my swords because once battle is joined you will need to make finishing attacks in the field. I have had too many raiders get caught and slaughtered in the past, and they are useless while they walk between cities.
     
  17. sfnhltb

    sfnhltb Chieftain

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    Combat odds are based on the ratio of strengths between attack and defense, so adding 0.6 to one side or removing 0.6 from the other are not a wash in most circumstances (including the example given). That would only be true if the odds were based on the absolute strength differential between the two units.
     
  18. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    Oops, the CR1 promotion is +20% instead of +10%, but the math still holds. In this case the CR1 promotion is better than C1 when attacking the given Archer in a city. There are cases where this is reversed.
     
  19. oldsaxon

    oldsaxon Warlord

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    The easiest way to see which is better is to boot up the game and test. I was actually a little surprised by the results: City Raider is not always best.

    All the tests were conducted against a city with 20% cultural defenses, which I feel is typical of many cities you might face in the Swordsman era, and with fully fortified Archers.

    Code:
    ¦--------------¦------------------------------------¦
    ¦              ¦                  Archer            ¦
    ¦  Swordsman   ¦        Plain        ¦     Hill     ¦
    ¦              ¦   -    Drill   CG1  ¦   -     CG1  ¦
    ¦-             ¦ 61.3%  58.1%  30.2% ¦ 22.8%  19.0% ¦
    ¦Combat        ¦ 67.2%  64.2%  60.7% ¦ 27.9%  23.7% ¦
    ¦CR1           ¦ 68.1%  65.1%  61.3% ¦ 27.5%  22.8% ¦
    ¦Combat, Cover ¦ 75.1%  72.5%  68.6% ¦ 59.2%  29.0% ¦
    ¦CR1, CR2      ¦ 85.7%  83.9%  70.0% ¦ 59.5%  28.8% ¦
    ¦--------------¦---------------------¦--------------¦
    What the table shows is that the City Raider (CR) line is superior to the Combat line for attacking weaker defenses such as cities on plains, or with no cultural defenses. However, for tougher defenses such as cities on hills, holy cities, or veteran units with three City Garrison (CG) promotions, you are actually better off using Combat and Cover.

    Of course, there are still other considerations like keeping a flexible army, defending yourself in the field, and what the third promotion should be. However this data suggests that against weaker opposition you should field City Raiders, and against stronger foes you should field combat-promoted Swordsmen.
     
  20. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The sword discussion is somewhat intriguing, but also irrelevant for the moment. You can't sword rush with horses.

    Much of the benefit of waiting for the relatively stronger vs cities swordsmen is that you have to delay them. In the case of this map we have instant access to horses and can hit a full 1000 years, possibly more, before we'd even train swords in any useful #. The AI can use that time to hook up metals of its own and build more units.
     

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