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ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lord Parkin, May 27, 2009.

  1. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Very nice write up to start with. Kudo's for that. I agree with Sisiutil with selling resources. You can even sell fish for 2 gold per turn even when the AI already has it. I do that all the time. It is a fast way to net in something like 10-14 gold/turn. Nothing to sneeze at. And that big pile of gold of Ghandi is just yummie. Don't you dare not to trade anything for it. Let him show you the money!!!

    About the settler. I think 1W is better. Then you get to work 2 hills and even have a grassland tile to cottage. Settling on the hill gives you 1 hammer but you loose 5 hammers in the longer run.

    Since this game won't be over in the 1800's I would say that you save the GM for Sids Sushi. That one is incredible on this map.
     
  2. wioneo

    wioneo King

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    How exactly do multiple resources even work? Is it only encorporable resources that you can trade in multiples? I've always wondered why some where redded out, but not all...
     
  3. Kazbar

    Kazbar Chieftain

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    I was slightly disappointed by the lack of leader interaction is this round...I wanted Oranje to talk to Roosy, like he did all the others. I understand the time constraints, so I'm not blaming you, it just saddens me is all.
     
  4. Calder

    Calder Warlord

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    Had London built the Hindu shrine, settling the GM there aiding a future Wall Street would have been the strongest move. As it is I would send him off to the Artemis Temple city in India if you feel confident about getting Lib first, then use Economics as the free tech, keeping that free GM for a future Sushi Corp. It will delay Astronomy by a few turns but well worth it. Also the extra trade route via Free Market from Economics is a nice boost on these maps, a civic change that will probably stay with you all game.
     
  5. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    I say stay on the Astronomy from liberalism path, you can't beat those overseas trade routes/foreign or domestic.

    observatories are great for further boosting research.

    East India men, with 4 cargo spaces and ability to enter neutral lands.

    Good call on bulbing Currency, have to keep that one in mind for the LHC games. I find getting CoL's, currency, Calender (sometimes ) can be problematic, that and Monarchy as well.

    Free Merchant from Economics, wouldn't spend what you have till you get a replacement, hate to lose sids due to low odds GP popping out.

    Wall street and Moai statues?? Judaism spread No 2 at 19%, is in York, why not spread that about, shrine that city, and wall street it, London should be Military pump or iron works?, along with Amsterdam.

    things to do;
    1. Shrine Judaism.
    2. Settle Great Merchant (or hold till economics)in future wall street (york)
    3. Liberalism/ Astronomy-Economics (great Merchant 4 sids sushi)
    4. Build some troops and go dog pile into Mao.
    5. Highlight the East Indiaman by sending troops at MAO.
     
  6. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    No We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced? Why's that? (Do you mean when we trade a tech TO the AI?)

    Okay, thanks for the info. It's indeed nice to see a strong Gandhi preparing for a war with someone, especially if that someone isn't us. :D

    Are you sure? I thought the AI won't accept multiple copies of a resource unless it has the right corporations. :confused:

    Heh, alright, will do. ;)

    Yeah, I wouldn't settle on the hill anyway. I was tossing up between the other inland locations.

    Absolutely!

    Sorry about that! It felt a bit sad to leave it out to me as well, but at the time I was too tired to think of anything original.

    How about I go back tomorrow and edit in the conversation spoilers? I'll let you know when I've done so. :)

    Problem with the highlighted part is that we don't have the prerequisites for Economics, so can't get it as a free tech. We need Feudalism/Guilds/Banking first. ;)

    Nice plan. I think I'll hold the Great Merchant until I'm sure that I'll get Economics (would be a great shame to lose Sushi on this map). A war with Mao is definitely a good idea too, especially since it looks like Gandhi should leave us alone for the time being.
     
  7. Pindrus

    Pindrus Warlord

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    With all the wonders he has built, I would be surprised if Ghandi does not go for a cultural victory. It would be extraordinarily early for him to shoot for that at this point, but when he does he may go into WHEOOHRN-mode and re-allocate his slider to produce culture. With the strong state of this game, I think this will probably be the most likely threat to a Dutch victory.

    Luckily you are very close to India and your UU will be great for carrying an invasion force. Building up for aggressions versus Mao in the next set should be fine, but by 1600 or 1650 or so (not quite sure about the date estimate) you will want a force capable of razing one or two Indian culture cities. Ideally, you want to hit him slightly before #2 and #3 go legendary. At that point he will have been neglecting science for many turns and hopefully you have a tech edge (like attacking his muskets with your rifles/cannon). If he doesn't research it himself, I would also avoid trading Ghandi Liberalism, as it allows Free Speech.

    ---

    I would also have settled the small islands (but not put 4 on one-eek!) with the WvO/GLH setup. Maybe you already had enough overseas routes, but with the GLH and enough mainland cities sometimes you can found your first 3-4 island cities and actually see your GPT/BPT increase! :D
     
  8. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

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    The Great Lighthouse is a double-edged sword...

    The advantages are obvious, but not the disadvantages.

    The disadvantage is that two great people appeared as Great Merchants.

    The Philosophy bulb is one of the advantages of having a Great Scientist, and now you must find a way to get Philosophy. Gathering together enough trade fodder to do so is not a trivial task, since you did not take the Aesthetics-Music path.

    On the other hand, spending the next Great Scientist on Philosophy may not be as effective as doing the bulb earlier, since trade opportunities will have diminished by the time you do so.

    The options available for Philosophy seem to be to give other civs a temporary tech lead by trading up for it, and then catching up later through superior research.
     
  9. Vox Mentis

    Vox Mentis Chieftain

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    I mean trade horseback riding to Gandhi for gold since gold can be converted to beakers at 1.25x (assuming libraries and no gold modifiers). I think the AI values gold roughly the same as a beaker (maybe I'm wrong here?) so even if you end up researching aesthetics yourself, you'll come out ahead compared to trading for it (in that case you'd also get the bonus for knowing three civs with it).

    As I see it though, HBR is probably the only tech Gandhi wants that you'd want to part with at the moment since everyone else has it - I would think he's likely to buy it off someone else anyway? I see that Gandhi doesn't have ivory while you do - so you can build a handful of war elephants and let him waste hammers building horse archers (edit: or knights in the near future, but cuirassiers are probably too far off to worry about - he'll surely have HBR by then).
     
  10. wioneo

    wioneo King

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    I never understood this...why is it that people always referr to bulbing philosophy on the path to liberalism? Wouldn't researching that on your own and bulbing education be better? Seeing as education is mroe expensive than both liberalism and philosophy...taoism is usually a non issue from what I've noticed(USUALLY), so I don't even include that in consideration...
     
  11. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    You can get alot of good trades out of it.

    Also it is quite beaker intensive compared to all the other techs you have around that time.

    It depends ;)
     
  12. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Yes... but after hard REXxing, Philosophy is easy to bulb: it comes after CoL. From there, you can trade yourself up a bit. By the time you can research Education, you should get more GSs.

    IMO, for this game it's not really an issue though. Getting a GS would be best used to bulb Edu at this point.
     
  13. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    Maybe because I am using 3.17 still I can trade excess resources. I play the great plains a lot and I can always trade away the cows even if the AI has 10 cows himself. He will still cough up 2 to 3 gold for it :)
     
  14. Lord Parkin

    Lord Parkin aka emperor

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    Very good point. I'll have to watch out for that. Don't want him to steal victory out from under us. :)

    By 1600 or 1650 I'd hope to have Transports. But we'll see. :)

    Yep, indeed. It's a great benefit. (And I wouldn't have settled 4 cities on 1 island if I'd remembered about Vassal States being off. Oh well. ;) )

    Eh? You seem to be missing the most obvious alternative: we research Philosophy ourselves. Our research rate is pretty darned good, so it won't take very long - a half dozen turns or so, I'd suspect.

    Urgh, I definitely wouldn't bulb Education at this point, even if I suddenly had a GS! We're almost finished on it, remember. ;) If I got a GS I'd be very tempted to build an Academy to boost our research.

    Hmm, I'm still using 3.17, and I've never noticed the AI being willing to trade for resources it already has when it doesn't have a corporation. Are you sure you're not using an unofficial patch or something?

    By the way, just a random thought - might it be worth shifting our capital to London?
     
  15. Calder

    Calder Warlord

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    True, but you'll get that anyway, what you wont get is the free GM from Economics if someone else beats you to it. The AI are usually fairly quick to get Economics post Banking on Immortal. Having a GM sit idly for a few hundred years before Sushi is available is such a waste if you have a realistic opportunity to aggresively go for the 2nd GM via Economics.
    That was my initial thoughts, but as LP says there are a few prerequisite techs to get first which i didn't realise without being able to open the saved game (don't have Bug). Still if there is an opportunity to trade for some of those techs then maybe it could be achieved.
     
  16. Single Malt

    Single Malt Prince

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    Aside there is feck all cross ocean trading anyway, as all the landmasses seem connected.
     
  17. champ82

    champ82 Immortal Ruler

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    Hi I’ve been reading this and at has been fun, educational and inspiring. Rushing Lizzy, building the GLH, bribing the AIs to fight each other, and bulbing that GM were all good moves IMO.

    I am an emperor player and the following are just my gut reactions –

    London seems like a good :gold: city. If you take over Mao and Alex, which would most likely be a good move and seems pretty likely down the road, than Amsterdam should remain the capital in terms of location. Plus Amsterdam seems to have good production, making it a good Bureaucracy capital. Commerce should be invested in by building cottages on all non resource plains and grassland (and take out the lake being worked to make a cottage grow instead.) The fact that London has high hammers: is good because you want to build all the :gold: multipliers there if you shrine (which I think is advisable.) I personally love :gold: cities with high :hammers:. Getting Wall St. up ASAP is really nice, it can really change the game. With your UB, Wall Street could go up obscenely fast. It might be really important if Ghandi techs well and we’re tied up fighting someone else.

    The high :food: could help with running merchants (needed for Sushi) if need be.

    I think we should run 2 priests in London. With Maoi, we should get a priest pretty soon, right? Apologies in advance for not opening up the save and figuring it out for myself. Maybe run 2 priests and some scientists to get a great person faster, whether it be a Prophet for shrine or Scientists for lib bulb or academy?

    Finally, if we build a super :gold: city, with shrine, settled merchants, all :gold: multipliers whipped fast if need be, then we can slide up the :science: rate which will be using CRE and FIN very well.

    As for the GM, I am leaning towards not saving him for Sushi. It has been my experience that the AI doesn’t prioritize great people for corps very well. Plus, you can run unlimited merchants from caste system, unlike engineers. Also if you build grocer and market in London, then you can run 4 without CS, even more (3 more?) with Wall St. Then again…maybe better safe than sorry.

    Maybe settle GM in London, whip marketplace (still leaving room for priests specialists.)

    Or, alternatively, save GM for a time when we get a military tech lead, send him on a mission, upgrade units like crazy and raise some hell.


    I wouldn’t be too worried about Ghandi in terms of military. I read here that we won’t declare at pleased, and he’s Ghandi, and he’s AI. I can’t take water invasion threats from the AI very seriously, even on difficulty levels I haven’t even attempted. Even on the rare instances that I have seen the AI bring enough units to do an invasion, they waste their initiative by camping out and using siege, instead of surprise attacks supported by ship bombardment as it should be done.


    OK I haven’t bothered to open the save, and I am an emperor player who freely admits that I wouldn’t have played this as well as LP, but still these are my 2 cents. I could be wrong about a lot of this, but these are my current 'fresh pair of eyes' perspectives.
     
  18. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Deity

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    Since LP is using the standard single-player install of BUG, you don't need to have BUG yourself to open the save. BUG was designed to be used in succession games where not all players have it installed.
     
  19. petey

    petey Prince

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    I don't know if you should really be bothering with a war here. You have great territory and are in a great position, it may be best to just aim for the spaceship or diplo win. Build up your troops of course and join in with anyone who'd have a chance of voting for you instead of Ghandi at the UN to get a couple extra pluses from them, but there probably wouldn't be a whole lot to gain simply by taking a few extra cities from Mao.

    An aggressive game makes for a more exciting thread to read, but you've played the Dutch traits into getting yourself a nice merchant empire here and you could maximize your success so far into an easy peaceful victory condition.
     
  20. Dr Yes

    Dr Yes Definitely hooked

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    I second that motion. Show us how you can use your diplomatic skill on this level. You've already shown that you can engage the AI into combat with each other. How can you gain enough support contra Gandhi (who will be most likely your main contestant).
     

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