That doesn't affect anything for me either, I don't think their are any random rolls involved in building a city.
ALC Game #26: Willem van Oranje/Dutch
- Thread starter Lord Parkin
- Start date
That doesn't affect anything for me either, I don't think their are any random rolls involved in building a city.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
OK, if he pops the hut after the city is built it's still the same turn, right???
This was discussed earlier about getting free techs (No free techs until after the city is built). I am wondering if that affects anything else.
This was discussed earlier about getting free techs (No free techs until after the city is built). I am wondering if that affects anything else.
Pindrus
Warlord
If you are taking votes, mine is for WB (clams) -> WB (fish) -> Worker -> a few warriors -> Lighthouse -> GLH, tech AH -> Mining -> BW -> Sailing -> Masonry. Try and 2 pop whip a lighthouse into GLH.
After pasturing, start pre-chopping (EDIT: or, better yet, pre-"mining" the plains hills) for GLH.
I totally agree with the sentiment here-GLH should be pursued without diversion at this point, though the micro will determine how quickly you get it. Beakers will be the primary bottleneck, hence the earlier WB and crabs first.
While it will likely depend on exploration during the next set, on Medium & Small it may be pretty easy to just spam warriors to prevent ANY barbs from even spawning. If there is a unit within 2 tiles of any square, that square cannot spawn barbs (regardless of whether the existing unit has sight on that square). I think that for culture borders you have to go by line-of-sight though. So basically you get to draw a big 5x5 box around each of your units in the wild and if you are on a small enough landmass you can cover all of it pretty easily without getting into unit upkeep costs. You can even prevent barb ships from spawning!
EDIT: Oops, you ended up doing Big & Small, well as long as the warriors on the outskirts of the spawning blockade are on forested hills you should be fine until barb axes
After pasturing, start pre-chopping (EDIT: or, better yet, pre-"mining" the plains hills) for GLH.
I totally agree with the sentiment here-GLH should be pursued without diversion at this point, though the micro will determine how quickly you get it. Beakers will be the primary bottleneck, hence the earlier WB and crabs first.
So you think there's no point in building Chariots because of the very small risk of a barbarian Spearman popping up? The great majority of early barbarians are Warriors, Archers, and Axemen, so it's fairly silly to ignore a fairly powerful unit due to a small risk of its counter appearing.
This is like saying there's no point in building Warriors or Archers because they'll get killed by Axemen. It's true that all units have some counter or other, but it doesn't make sense to base all your decisions on those small negatives while pushing aside the big positives of more powerful units.
While it will likely depend on exploration during the next set, on Medium & Small it may be pretty easy to just spam warriors to prevent ANY barbs from even spawning. If there is a unit within 2 tiles of any square, that square cannot spawn barbs (regardless of whether the existing unit has sight on that square). I think that for culture borders you have to go by line-of-sight though. So basically you get to draw a big 5x5 box around each of your units in the wild and if you are on a small enough landmass you can cover all of it pretty easily without getting into unit upkeep costs. You can even prevent barb ships from spawning!
EDIT: Oops, you ended up doing Big & Small, well as long as the warriors on the outskirts of the spawning blockade are on forested hills you should be fine until barb axes
budweiser
King of the Beers
As has been noted, building the GLH will secure a win. That is not interesting to me.
Is there another path to take that will show case fin/cre UU/UB and still get a win?
I would be more interested in developing that strategy.
Dr Yes
Definitely hooked
LP, lots of luck and wisdom with this game!
Great start. Build WB first, using the 3H from the forested hill. It will stagnate growth, but the WB will be in in 12 turns.
Then a choice needs to be made between working the fish or the clams. The additional 2 beakers do not make a lot of difference on the number of turns required for AH, so I'd go for the fish. (There also is a slight advantage in having them off-shore, which mean free of barb threat, even though barb galleys won't appear yet).
You'll get your worker in turn 27. AH is researched in turn 20. To keep the worker occupied, the preferred path would be Mining > BW. The worker will be occupied at least 12 turns farming both cows, so the worker should be busy until turn 39. Amsterdam will have popped another cultural ring by then, so unless there is something nice out there the only thing the worker can build is a farm on the incense. You probably wont get BW until turn 52. That means that you may waste some worker turns before BW is in, unless you go for Wheel in the mean time.
In terms of build order, WB > worker seems obvious. After that, a second WB for the clams. Grow the city steadily, working the fish, then fish + cows, then fish + 2 cows. After the second WB, a couple of warriors to grow to happy cap.
By that stage, BW will be in and you can chop the first settler. After BW, I'd probably go Wheel > Writing, unless we have no bronze nor horses, in which case I'd go Hunting > Archery.
Great start. Build WB first, using the 3H from the forested hill. It will stagnate growth, but the WB will be in in 12 turns.
Then a choice needs to be made between working the fish or the clams. The additional 2 beakers do not make a lot of difference on the number of turns required for AH, so I'd go for the fish. (There also is a slight advantage in having them off-shore, which mean free of barb threat, even though barb galleys won't appear yet).
You'll get your worker in turn 27. AH is researched in turn 20. To keep the worker occupied, the preferred path would be Mining > BW. The worker will be occupied at least 12 turns farming both cows, so the worker should be busy until turn 39. Amsterdam will have popped another cultural ring by then, so unless there is something nice out there the only thing the worker can build is a farm on the incense. You probably wont get BW until turn 52. That means that you may waste some worker turns before BW is in, unless you go for Wheel in the mean time.
In terms of build order, WB > worker seems obvious. After that, a second WB for the clams. Grow the city steadily, working the fish, then fish + cows, then fish + 2 cows. After the second WB, a couple of warriors to grow to happy cap.
By that stage, BW will be in and you can chop the first settler. After BW, I'd probably go Wheel > Writing, unless we have no bronze nor horses, in which case I'd go Hunting > Archery.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Clams + AH ...
Oh, someone already said that
Oh, someone already said that
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
I've had alot less problems with barb galleys since I learned about spawnbusting since I now know a unit can spawnbust the coastal area even without seeing it. It can be a bit harder on coast-heavy maps such as big & small though.
TM Moot
King
Could do with a settler, perhaps after first new warrior.
Don't forget The Wheel, say between BW and Sailing.
Jabah
Emperor
except if there are bronze/horse within cultural border, I would probably do sailing before wheel
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
This is the first time I've come across this term. How is it different from fog-busting?
Pindrus
Warlord
Yes, I think this is the big decision for the first set or two. Perhaps it's because I personally still struggle to win on immortal that I would choose the GLH.
I guess the most appropriate alternative would be to REX and try to grab lots of land for coastal cities while pursuing a more standard lib race? Maybe prioritize pottery after BW to throw down a few cottages at the cap, then try and place the 2nd city along a river for the 3
baby cottages?EDIT:
Your units don't actually have to have visibility of a tile to prevent barbs from spawning. As long as you have a unit (or there is any unit) within 2 tiles of another square, no barb will spawn there.
For example:
The forest 2W of the axe is "spawnbusted" even though it is still in the "fog."
r_rolo1
King of myself
@Sisiutil
Barbs will not spawn in a 5x5 square centered in another unit ( regardless of nationality, it can even be another barb ), regardless of the candidate square being visible or not by any civ. Gliese is talking about using/abusing/exploiting that to stop barb spawning at all or atleast slow it down by using clever positioning of units in the map.
Barbs will not spawn in a 5x5 square centered in another unit ( regardless of nationality, it can even be another barb ), regardless of the candidate square being visible or not by any civ. Gliese is talking about using/abusing/exploiting that to stop barb spawning at all or atleast slow it down by using clever positioning of units in the map.
Technically, fogbusting and spawnbusting achieve the same goal.
However, spawnbusting abuses the knowledge that no unit whatsoever may spawn in a 5x5 square around any unit of a civilization, including another barbarian (iIrc). Meaning you can 'fogbust' with less units - and even get away with just warriors.
However, spawnbusting abuses the knowledge that no unit whatsoever may spawn in a 5x5 square around any unit of a civilization, including another barbarian (iIrc). Meaning you can 'fogbust' with less units - and even get away with just warriors.
budweiser
King of the Beers
A barb unit will not spawn within 2 tiles of one of your units even if you cannot see the tile.
Dr Yes
Definitely hooked
The second build (WB or worker) really depends on what you get after AH is in. Yes, a worker may be idle a couple of turns (not that many, to be honest), UNLESS there is something of interest within your cultural borders.
I like the math on the 2nd build (WB-WB-wk or WB-wk-WB), but does that analysis take into consideration what the worker can do after turn 58? I would (judgmentally) say that at that stage it will be handy to have two developed cow sites.
Let's discuss again when AH is in (turn 20).
I like the math on the 2nd build (WB-WB-wk or WB-wk-WB), but does that analysis take into consideration what the worker can do after turn 58? I would (judgmentally) say that at that stage it will be handy to have two developed cow sites.
Let's discuss again when AH is in (turn 20).
Dr Yes
Definitely hooked
Did you actually use BUG3.6 for this save? When I open the game and press Alt-X to create a dotmap, nothing happens...
budweiser
King of the Beers
Ultimocrat
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2007
- Messages
- 274
OK, I'm going to go counter-current and suggest WB(fish)-Worker-WB-Warrior-Warrior-Settler. Worker idle turns be damned, those two 6-yield cows are just too valuable to ignore while you slowly build your second work boat. Using this approach, you have a settler at turn 60, not relying on chopping anything, and you always are growing onto improved tiles (WB-WB-worker grows you onto unimproved tiles thrice, most damagingly when going to pop 2).
EDIT: second border pop will come at turn 38. This is before your worker goes idle in the WB(fish)-Worker-WB-... sequence. The second border pop puts a lot of tiles in your cultural boundaries, including the rice to the east. So you can at least farm it in your spare turns while BW is being researched. This means there's not actually much idle time with my proposed path.
EDIT: second border pop will come at turn 38. This is before your worker goes idle in the WB(fish)-Worker-WB-... sequence. The second border pop puts a lot of tiles in your cultural boundaries, including the rice to the east. So you can at least farm it in your spare turns while BW is being researched. This means there's not actually much idle time with my proposed path.
popejubal
Emperor
This is not at all true and it is very easy to demonstrate. Start a game and find a hut. Find something to do that uses random numbers (but don't do it yet) and save the game.
Case 1:
pop the hut first. You'll get one result. Reload the game and pop the hut first and you'll still get the exact same result as long as "new random seed on reload" isn't checked.
Case 2: Do fight your combat/use your missionary/whatever and then pop the hut. You'll get a different result than under case 1. Reload your game and do the same sequence of actions and you'll still get exactly the same hut results.
The random number gods make a new number every time you "use up" a random number. The game turn has nothing to do with the random numbers. The only difference between "new random seed on reload" being checked or not checked is that the entire set of random numbers is predetermined at the start of the game when it's not checked and a new set of random numbers is generated each time you load the game when that setting is checked. Changing the order of your actions during a turn can have very significant impact on that turn's results if you have multiple actions that "use up" random numbers.
Three combats, a hut and a missionary could change from 3 combat wins, a tech and a successful religion spread to 0 combat wins, a barbarian spawn and an unsuccessful religion spread just based on the order in which you take those actions.
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