ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[Sisiutil]

All Leaders Challenge Game #4:
Egypt/Hatshepsut

​

Pre-Game Thread

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders I haven't tried before on my current difficulty level, Prince. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. This gives everyone a chance to play armchair quarterback and generally swap strategy ideas and see how they play out.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do so, I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'm playing as Hatshepsut, leader of Egypt.

Round 0: 4000 BC

Here are the initial game settings:



And here is the starting position:



Not too shabby. Hatty starts with Agriculture and there's a farmable resource right there; it'll be irrigated by the lake for a +1 food bonus too. (Am I right about that?) We also decided in the pre-game show that I am going to try a War Chariot rush on at least one (possibly several) opponents, so that means researching Animal Husbandry to reveal horses first. So it's also encouraging to see a cow tile as well, which means I can put the AH worker tech to use right away.

I'm therefore thinking that building a Worker before a Warrior may make sense. Remember Hatty starts with the Wheel for roads, so a worker is not going to lack things to do in this setting even though I'm not researching Bronze Working right off the bat (Mining and BW are next after AH, though). On the other hand, a Warrior is a much slower explorer and I need to find horses and targets...er, neighbours. So I would probably benefit by building a Warrior while letting Thebes grow to pop 2, exploring with both of Warriors, then pulling them back for city defense once my first War Chariots are built.

Tyrant's tip from the first ALC thread regarding the resource balloon pointers tells me I'm north of the equator. Based on my experience with continents maps, I'll bet that there's tundra within 4-5 tiles of that river to my north. There's another river to my southwest; this is beneficial for both farms and for cottages. There's a roughly even mix of Grasslands and Plains, and a Calendar-activated luxury resource that will be available with Monarchy at the end of the early game. Several plains hills for production. And, of course, a goody hut right under my nose.

Now the first question is whether or not I should settle on the plains hill one tile south of my Settler for the +1 hammer bonus and +25% defense, at a cost of one turn. I'll keep the fresh water +1 health bonus if I move there, as well as the three river tiles to the north, and the rice and cow tiles. I'll lose the grapes, but that's not a big deal since they can't really be developed until Calendar. I'll gain another plains hill and a forest.

Since I want to build War Chariots quickly and attack at least one neighbour right off the bat, I think the extra hammer and the defense bonus of the plains hill make a lot of sense. However, I think my first move should be to send the Warrior NE, to the river/forest tile directly north of the settler, to reveal what else would be in the fat cross if I settle in place.

Sending the Settler up that hill will pop the hut (cross your fingers that I get AH!) and should reveal the southern three tiles of the fat cross if I settle there. I can see one is a plains tile, the other is a plains hill. Not sure on the SW one, though I'm gonna guess it's another hill. With five hills and the river and lake allowing irrigation, the captial would be more of a production city than a commerce/science city. Those two food resource tiles will allow citizens to work most of the hills/mines.

If I go up the hill and think the original spot looks best, I can go back to it and settle there on the second turn.

So...plains hill for Thebes? Whaddaya think?

 

[vampy420]

In my opinion, since your aim is the earliest war possible - the first city doesnt have to be 'perfect' - its got good food (yes you get irrigation bonus for fresh water) and hills for producton. I vote settle in place.

.. but .. there is river to north .. send warior up there to take peek b4 u settle.

 

[The Tyrant]

I flinched at first, seeing all those plains and plains hills. Still, you've got two good food resources at hand. I agree that unless the warrior reveals another food resource, the extra hammer this early in the game would definitely be worth a one-turn delay in settling. It will make a big difference in production times and make an early rush even more possible. The surrounding terrain is good enough for the early game, but I forsee the capital being moved later in the game.

 

[rdm180]

You only need Monarchy for the wine, not calendar.

I also vote for settle in place, but check up north first of course.

-RDM

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

And here is the starting position...

That's a nice diceroll. The lake is a bummer (can't be improved), but cows and irrigated rice are a big deal (yes, you are right - the plot is worth 3F now. With a farm you get +2F for the improved rice and +1F for the irrigated farm, with another +1F to come when Biology rolls in).

So I agree strongly with worker first - you've got two +6 tiles to put in play immediately, and it doesn't immediately appear as though you've got any good tiles to use while waiting for the city to grow (it might be different if you had a couple 2F/1P/1C tiles).

It's almost too much of a good thing - On prince, you're capped for the moment at 5 happy, so you need 10 food. So what will you work? The rice, two plains cottages, and two mines? The rice, three plains hill mines, and a forrest? You are in good shape, but you will want to pay some attention to the available builds early - awesome production with no horses and no useful infrastructure available may suck.

I would move the warrior NE, so see what's north of the river. If that doesn't change my mind about moving, I would then move the settler to the cows. With that information, I would choose which hill to climb with the second movement point (the one I would prefer to settle, if the view from the hill doesn't have bad vibes).

Sending the Settler up that hill will pop the hut (cross your fingers that I get AH!)

No point - you can't get a tech until you have a city.

Guessing at the southern part of the map (bother, you haven't posted the initial auto save): it looks to me like you've got plains SW of the hut, and a plains hill S of that, with plains on either side.

It looks like you have exactly one forrest on the other side of the river (you can just make out the tree trunks in your picture).

As I understand the map balancing routines, there should be a strategic resource here somewhere, not in the lake (heh), not on a tile that already
has a resource, and not on a tile that has a forrest. I believe, although I don't know it, that the goodie hut also cannot have a resource under it. so I'm guessing the plains hill with the hut is your best place to settle (the mystery resource should still be in the fat cross 80% of the time).

For research, Animal Husbandry is a nobrainer. After that, I would branch depending on whether you have horses in view. If yes, then I would look toward Mining and Bronzeworking, and getting the production for this city established. If not, I would look towards Pottery, and lay down some cottages. My concern is that with all those hammers, and no horses, you don't have any good builds in the city (worker - barracks - then what? punt with a warrior, I suppose - or build a settler and ice him until you know where he is going).

 

[Sisiutil]

(bother, you haven't posted the initial auto save)

D'OH! I knew I forgot something:

 

[vampy420]

I'd think for first techs, AH - Mining / BW .. gotta chop somethin eventually, may as well reveal horse / bronze right away.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd agree on AH->BW*, however looking at the start...if you do the Plains Hill
1 pop= 5 'Worker production' (F+P).. 12 turns
2 pop= 6 'Worker production'...10 turns

So given the minimal Gains, (you won't get one extra pop in those two turns) I'd say maybe Worker->Warrior [or you could get Hunting First and then AH to allow Worker->Scout... more rapid scouting and It'll take a while to get the settler ready for grabbing horses anyways..plus it slightly speeds up the work on AH)

However Hunting first is a Thought.. depends on how soon you thing you will find those neighbors,..as for the locations, the Scanning pattern (Warrior NE, Settler S) looks good.. just make sure to move the Warrior First (so that if something Really good appears you won't have to go for the plains hill)

*possibly Hunting before AH (you should still have AH before the Worker finishes with the Rice Farm and builds a road to the cows, and a little After the scout has gone exploring.)

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Yes, Settle in place.

AH first because you need to know where the horses are.

I've been building a warrior first to defend the city. Then I interrupt the second warrior to build a worker when I hit size 2. Then I alternate Warrior and Settler to get the initial land grab. From there, decisions about Barracks and WC can be made, as well as any race for early wonders. I have made runs for SH, because the early GP is an asset. When my current game runs it's cource, I'll try a land grab/WC Rush to see if that can work...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As I understand the map balancing routines....

Hmm, I'm less certain that I understand them. Tonights reading suggests that the "rush" resources (copper/iron/horse) are never used for normalizing the starting city. Hoom hoom.

 

[Nares]

I can't help myself but to jump in.

I notice there's a lot of support for researching Animal Husbandry and Bronze Working early on. However, I think researching other techs first, namely Hunting (and perhaps Archery), might be a more prudent choice.

You'll have the time while building the Worker to research Hunting. At the very least, you can slip it in while improving and connecting the Rice. I think the odds of you finding close Horses are moderatly low. That said, you'll probably end up grabbing them with your second city. You'll have time to build Scouts while growing to higher sizes and improving other tiles. Not to say AH isn't a priority, it just doesn't need to be the first tech you research.

Bronze Working is an obviously low priority (especially with the lack of Forests around). You really only need it and Iron Working in order to cut off enemy supplies of the metals (cut off Horses as well).

EDIT: If you really look carefully at that screenshot, you can barely make out that it's two Grassland and one Forest Grassland to the north (G-G-F/G). That leaves room for only two potential resources (probably none, so you're looking at a good deal of time until those become productive tiles).

PS: Don't underestimate 1 turn War Chariot builds.

 

[vampy420]

I tried loading game, but my pc (or one of the programs) will not let me start Civ4 game with Lin2 running in background

Probably gameguard in lin2, but from screen shot couldnt another posibility for city be river? makes easier to hook up resources and keep fresh water health bonus. Also - not sure of a point here with rivers .. can you simply connect road to river and then resourses on that road are attached to trade network?

 

[Killroyan]

Well moving the warrior to NE is the best action to do I guess. The river up north could mean you get some nice cottage tiles, more fresh water and maybe even an extra resource. On the other hand going down to the hill would mean 1 extra hammer and a hill connected to the river (the hill in the SW is connected to a river) so no fresh water problems there. Going to the hill S would also mean at least 6 hill squares to mine with chances to get copper/iron resources when you research them instead of 3 hills with your starting position. On the other hand you do want horses so getting more grass plains could also help you a little more. Tough choices, but I would go for the 1 S route. You have enough food and you do want to crank out chariots so hills would be better. Suprise us.

 

[The Tyrant]

Also - not sure of a point here with rivers .. can you simply connect road to river and then resourses on that road are attached to trade network?

That's correct.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

You only need Animal Husbandry in time to settle your second city. Yes, this assumes none will pop within your borders. However, I think that's a more than reasonable assumption to make (good to err on the safe side).

Researching Hunting provides you with something to do before you're ready to settle that second city (assuming Horses don't pop immediatly, in which case you could have gotten them all of 6 or so turns earlier...). It also helps with the (more) important task of finding your enemies.

Furthermore, Hunting is a pre-requisite for Animal Husbandry, so you earn back a little of its cost. Based on this, the need for scouting, and the non-immediecy of needing horses, I would support researching Hunting before Animal Husbandry.

I also agree with moving the Warrior NE to see what all's actually inside the city-radius, and see if that is better than what you could get from settling on the Plains Hill 2 south. If theres nothing really special up there, I'd head south.

The plains-hill will easily pay for the 1 turn lost in transit, and if it ends up being crap, you can go back to the original spot having only lost 2 turns. 2 turns is 6 culture, 18 beakers, and 8 Food/Hammers. Not a crippling blow. You take the gamble that you might get an awesome rushing-city site, and the worst that would happen is what I described.

***Update***
Played up to 3000 AD in your save, faithfully carrying out all the advice which I espoused. I can't tell you how it went, but I did get awfully lucky. I popped a Scout from the 3rd hut I found, and from the 4th one, I procured Writing. So, I'm, pretty happy with myself. If you manage to pop all the same huts on the same turns and from the same directions I did, these could be yours too! I wasn't quite sure what to do with suddenly getting writing though, so I just kept on the mining/BW path. I think that I might use it to scout the innards of potential victim civilizations though, to find their metal.

...And then I popped masonry in 2840.

Horses are achievable, but it looks as though it may involve some dot-mapping that turns nasty in the long run. But is it not better to have one single city that stands above the rest, even at the expense of others? Irksomely, the computer refuses to recognize my chosen city-site with a blue circle. There are circles nearby, but I do not see how they gain any superiority over my choice. Bronzeworking is still 7 turns away, and and it would be foolish to let my settler sit idle in the vain hope of convenient copper. Hmm...

I will think on this, since I do not often like to plant a city until I have dotmapped the entire region so I can properly judge the cost-benefit ratio of each candidate spot.

There are basicly 2 sets of settlement that come out of this, one provides strength in the short-term, the other gives you efficient usage of your land in the long-term. I think that since this is predicated around a chariot-rush, a city that is productive sooner rather than later would be in order.

 

[pigswill]

Settling in place gives 3 tiles north of river for farms/cottages.Go south lose those and the wine tile (another good early farm/cottage). Go north lose rice. So stay in place. Lake does give health bonus (due to minor bug if you build great lighthouse you get an extra trade route for being on a lake).
In terms of hunting before animal husbandry that depends on wether you want to prioritise early exploration over early city growth. If you want exploration then its hunting, start warrior, build scout, worker at pop2. If you want growth build worker first.

 

[actionmedia]

here is my suggestion:
Look at that green circle on the second planis hill south. I bet south of it you can find another better resource.
I thik is better to move your settler south west, one tile, see or figure wat wait's you south, then decide if you will settle on the first or the second hill.
As you may guessed I vote for settling on plain hhill because:
1. You will build the warrior much faster 8 turns, exactly as much as for the city to grow to size 2.
2. building the worker at size 2 will take only 10 turns
3. defence bonus
4. save a good location for a farm or cottage and you still have 4 plains hills

One more thing:
Notice far SW a river. I bet it continues to the E and that south of the second plain hill wait a few good flood plains or at least grassland.

I would settle on the second plains hill to the south, the one with the circle on it.

 

[Killroyan]

Hmm 2 more south is also a possibility. You can get there in one turn and still keep the cow, rice and lake. And indeed the river close to it makes it a good spot. If you get another good resource like gold then it would be sweet.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I've said my bit, and I await what Sisiutil will choose. Choosing where to settle here will have a surprisingly large effect on the game. Think hard.

 

[actionmedia]

One more thing: South mean closer to the ecuator, and it increse the posibility to build the space elevator (in case you decide for space victory).
With 4 plainhills and food resources, it will probably be a production city.