VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
glokkonn said:
No, the happy won't happen until Calendar (even if you settle on it, you don't get the resource until you get the technology to improve it).
ALC Game #5: England/Victoria
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
No, the happy won't happen until Calendar (even if you settle on it, you don't get the resource until you get the technology to improve it).
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Tough choices!
StevenJoyce, Zombie69 was also recommending the N/NW plains hill. Which I find intriguing--Zombie is a micro-management maven, so I would have assumed he'd prefer to work with what's known; but it appears he's not averse to risk. I'm inclined to think there will be tundra or even snow tiles in that city's fat cross. I'm not averse to that, but I'd rather that be a secondary city, not one of my cores.
It makes Hans' "crazy-f*ck" suggestion appealing, though, since that would leave plenty of unclaimed tiles to put a city there later. Hmmm...
I should mention that another reason I'm inclined to go south is because I am obviously in the north. I want to expand southwards first, towards the other civs, to deprive them of land; then put cities into the territory to my north. This is why the Warrior will swing southeast, then turn west and expose tiles in an arc to the south of me: to reveal my next few city sites. Once they're in place, I'll put cities to my north, even far north.
I have found that cities in tundra and snow can be quite decent, provided they have a food resource and, even better, are coastal for fishing. There's often a very useful resource in the tundra (deer for health, furs/whales for happiness, marble for wonders). These tundra/snow cities also very effectively bust fog.
Ultimately, gang, I don't have to include every choice tile in my first city's fat cross. Whatever I miss out on can be worked by another city, or at least fall into my cultural boundaries. So I'm not averse to moving and spreading the wealth of floodplains between 2 or 3 cities. Frankly, I could move that settler almost anywhere, build my capital on this turn or the next, and wind up with a darn fine city. Ya gotta love a start like that.
StevenJoyce, Zombie69 was also recommending the N/NW plains hill. Which I find intriguing--Zombie is a micro-management maven, so I would have assumed he'd prefer to work with what's known; but it appears he's not averse to risk. I'm inclined to think there will be tundra or even snow tiles in that city's fat cross. I'm not averse to that, but I'd rather that be a secondary city, not one of my cores.
It makes Hans' "crazy-f*ck" suggestion appealing, though, since that would leave plenty of unclaimed tiles to put a city there later. Hmmm...
I should mention that another reason I'm inclined to go south is because I am obviously in the north. I want to expand southwards first, towards the other civs, to deprive them of land; then put cities into the territory to my north. This is why the Warrior will swing southeast, then turn west and expose tiles in an arc to the south of me: to reveal my next few city sites. Once they're in place, I'll put cities to my north, even far north.
I have found that cities in tundra and snow can be quite decent, provided they have a food resource and, even better, are coastal for fishing. There's often a very useful resource in the tundra (deer for health, furs/whales for happiness, marble for wonders). These tundra/snow cities also very effectively bust fog.
Ultimately, gang, I don't have to include every choice tile in my first city's fat cross. Whatever I miss out on can be worked by another city, or at least fall into my cultural boundaries. So I'm not averse to moving and spreading the wealth of floodplains between 2 or 3 cities. Frankly, I could move that settler almost anywhere, build my capital on this turn or the next, and wind up with a darn fine city. Ya gotta love a start like that.
Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Sisiutil said:
This is especially true early on, since in 1500 BC it doesn't really matter if your city doesn't have enough good tiles to grow to size 20. This was originally a very long, detailed explanation, but I'll try to cut it down before I post it.
In my current game, I got really cheated geographically. I started out wedged between tundra and desert with room for about 3 good (but not great, say a 7 out of 10) cities including the capital and 3 more junk cities in the middle of the desert or tundra. I was quite concerned about how this was going to work out, but I'm now solidly in the lead. Honestly, I think it worked out better in many ways than if I had a more conventional start.
As it turned out, I was able to build one city each in the desert and tundra that between them netted me gold, crabs, 2 furs, stone, marble, and 2 oasis tiles (plus a few other mostly useless squares). Although neither city can grow beyond 7 (ever -- even with biology and whatever late game benefits you get from workshops), those resources made a huge difference to my 3 good cities. Furthermore, in the early part of the game, it really doesn't matter if a city can't grow beyond 6. Of course it can't. You don't have the health or happiness to let even your best cities get past about 8 or 9. The desert city was actually my science/commerce leader for quite some time due to its gold and 2 oases (oasises?).
So as long as those ugly looking tundra and desert cities are contributing to the overall quality of your empire, you can use them to work towards getting higher quality land later. Of course, if you happen to have great non-tundra territory for a city, then that's even better. Don't settle in the tundra just because it's there, but if that's all you've got, it isn't necessarily the disaster it appears to be.
In fact, I usually wait until very late in the game before I start plunking down tundra colonies for deer and other cold weather resources, but now I'm thinking it might make more sense to get them built early. In 1950, a size 3 city with deer isn't going to do much for you. In 1500BC it will.
Admittedly, I'm fairly new to Civ4 but what about going 2 tiles SE
You settle on the desert hill tile(defense bonus and you get better resources from the desert hill. You still have access to 5 FP for good early growth(more even spread of FP between "core" cities.), 1 silk, a couple of plain hills, 2 forests(not the best for chopping). We know there will probably be more plains or grassland/jungles to the south. this also grabs some land further south, since we know we are most likely near the norther edge. And even if you dont settle on the desert hill, landing on the hill will give you more of the map to evaluate. To me it seems to make a good solid spot with options for solid surrounding cities.Also from the graphics on the river tiles, I'm assuming the nearest coast line is to the west.
bugstud
Chieftain
Sisiutil said:
Thoughts?
You have to go on the plains hill next to the river. You have at least 6-7forests to chop based on the edges of what you can see. You'll have a bunch of floodplains and grassland to farm/cottage as needed. This leaves open the chance that the second city can go on the plains hill next to the silk.
pigswill
fly (one day)
City specialisation?
Hans Lemurson
Prince
The crazy-f*ck option also has the benefit of intermeshing perfectly with the blue-circle whereupon the warrior now stands.
Silks aren't the best luxury resource in the game, and you're often better-off just cottaging the silk-tile anyways, so it really is good to build atop it, since as it is, it produces just enough commerce to activate your Financial-bonus. Instead of making a decision of whether to cottage or plantation the tile, you can just cottage a different tile instead. The financial gain from the silks will be available to you from the very beginning, and cost you only 1 turn.
Crazy-f*ck allows for the floodplains to be divided cleanly amongst 3 different city sites, and nets you some extra exploration. Any resources that would be lost from the capitol due to crazy-f*ck, can be easily picked up again by later cities. The blue circle is based on the known resources, which will not be lost to you, and moving south gains you the possibility of more resources in the unseen dark.
Lastly, since the river goes south too, it allows you more access to and control of the watershed.
Crazy-f*ck is actually looking like a decent and reasonable proposal now. Huh.
I'll put my money where my mouth is though, and will hereby begin a shadow-game based on the crazy-f*ck opening.
Silks aren't the best luxury resource in the game, and you're often better-off just cottaging the silk-tile anyways, so it really is good to build atop it, since as it is, it produces just enough commerce to activate your Financial-bonus. Instead of making a decision of whether to cottage or plantation the tile, you can just cottage a different tile instead. The financial gain from the silks will be available to you from the very beginning, and cost you only 1 turn.
Crazy-f*ck allows for the floodplains to be divided cleanly amongst 3 different city sites, and nets you some extra exploration. Any resources that would be lost from the capitol due to crazy-f*ck, can be easily picked up again by later cities. The blue circle is based on the known resources, which will not be lost to you, and moving south gains you the possibility of more resources in the unseen dark.
Lastly, since the river goes south too, it allows you more access to and control of the watershed.
Crazy-f*ck is actually looking like a decent and reasonable proposal now. Huh.
I'll put my money where my mouth is though, and will hereby begin a shadow-game based on the crazy-f*ck opening.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 1: to 2920 BC
Crazy-f*ck it is.
Hmmm...and what about a more exciting name than plain ol' Vanilla "London"? What about...
Camelot!
Camelot!
CAMELOT!
(It's only a rendered image.)
Shhh!
Welcome, o nomadic English, to your new home! Let us name it...Camelot!
We're knights of the Round Table
We dance whene'er we're able
We do routines
And chorus scenes
With footwork impec-cable
We dine well here in Camelot
We eat ham and jam and Spam a lot
We're knights of the Round Table
Our shows are for-mi-dable
But many times
We're given rhymes
That are quite un-sing-able
We're opera mad in Camelot
We sing from the diaphragm a lot
In war we're tough and able
Quite in-de-fa-ti-gable
Between our quests
We sequin vests
And impersonate Clark Gable
It's a busy life in Camelot
I have to push the pram a lot...
Hmmm... On second thought, let us not name it Camelot. It would be a silly place.
Ahem. Well, crazy-f*ck is not so crazy after all, huh? Look at that--we kept that hidden resource to the west, a wheat tile, and picked up two more resources: one cow, one wine. 6 forests, 3 floodplains, +2 health bonus, and no less than 17 river tiles with a commerce bonus (!). And I can distribute the other flood plains between two other cities. We can work on a dot map for that later.
I started building a worker. Normally I build a Warrior to let the city grow to size 2, but to accelerate expansion a Worker made sense, for chopping and to work that wheat tile once I got Agriculture.
My Warrior popped the goody hut next to him for a map. This is what it revealed:
Mostly territory northeast of London. Lots of tundra and ice. Barbs are going to come from that direction and be a problem for awhile. Nice to see some fur tiles up there, though--that holds promise for a northern outpost that can bust fog. Let's hope for a seafood resource hiddin off that northeastern coast.
After that, I turned the Warrior around and had him head southeast. I left the other tribal village for a later warrior to pop.
On his travels, my Warrior encountered my first neighbour. Remember how I said being next door to a psycho won't bode well for a cultural win? Well, guess who's off to my east:
Psycho-boy #1, Montezuma. Great.
And if that wasn't bad enough, the only source of copper I've thus far revealed is right on his doorstep:
Yes, there's stone there too. However, if you recall the streamlined tech path to Redcoats, Masonry was a tech to delay for awhile to ensure any Great Prophets would pop desired techs. I probably will build Stonehenge, in London, along with the Oracle. A city northeast of London, with more floodplains tiles, will likely be the commerce/science city, where the Great Library will be built. Gotta work on that dotmap...
And yes, Monty founded Hinduism. Well, good for him. That means his capital is a holy city, making it an even more attractive target for an early war. I'm already thinking along those lines: build a city right next to the copper, whip some Axes, and go after Monty right away.
In fact, I almost sent my Warrior over to try to snag a worker from him, but decided exploring was more important and the lake was a barrier. So I turned the warrior south along the lakeshore. He soon came across a hut that he popped for experience. He's got Woodsman II now for super-scouthood.
Meanwhile, my Worker completed and I changed the build queue in London:
The Worker chopped the first Warrior (which also helped with the 2nd), and the latter went north to explore for awhile. I originally planned to swing him east to protect the copper city, which the Settler will found, while the second Warrior was to become London's first protector. However, the first warrior popped that northeast hut for some experience, and became another Woodsman II super-scout, who will explore and likely fog-bust the north. So I'm going to make the second Warrior copper city's protector, and build London's protective Warrior after the Settler finishes.
Building the two Warriors gave London just enough time to grow to 2 pop before the Settler started building, and also just enough for Agriculture to become available to improve the wheat tile, which will help with the Settler, and with city growth for liberal use of the whip later on.
Anyway, here's what the map looks like in 2920:
Like I said, with Monty to my east and barbs to my north, that copper is going to be crucial, so my next city goes there. I'm thinking of the tile on the lakeshore between the copper and the rice. Not the greatest location, as it has two peaks and one desert tile in its fat cross, and it's uncomfortably close to Monty as well as being far from the capital. But copper is copper and I need it. A city to the east of London, in the gap, will come soon afterwards.
I have some lovely land to the south of me, but there has got to be some other civs down there. Once my 1st Woodsman recovers from his two recent wolf attacks, he'll head south. I'm in a good position to expand into that territory.
Here's the game save, and I await your thoughts:
Crazy-f*ck it is.
Hmmm...and what about a more exciting name than plain ol' Vanilla "London"? What about...
Camelot!
Camelot!
CAMELOT!
(It's only a rendered image.)
Shhh!
Welcome, o nomadic English, to your new home! Let us name it...Camelot!
We're knights of the Round Table
We dance whene'er we're able
We do routines
And chorus scenes
With footwork impec-cable
We dine well here in Camelot
We eat ham and jam and Spam a lot
We're knights of the Round Table
Our shows are for-mi-dable
But many times
We're given rhymes
That are quite un-sing-able
We're opera mad in Camelot
We sing from the diaphragm a lot
In war we're tough and able
Quite in-de-fa-ti-gable
Between our quests
We sequin vests
And impersonate Clark Gable
It's a busy life in Camelot
I have to push the pram a lot...
Hmmm... On second thought, let us not name it Camelot. It would be a silly place.
Ahem. Well, crazy-f*ck is not so crazy after all, huh? Look at that--we kept that hidden resource to the west, a wheat tile, and picked up two more resources: one cow, one wine. 6 forests, 3 floodplains, +2 health bonus, and no less than 17 river tiles with a commerce bonus (!). And I can distribute the other flood plains between two other cities. We can work on a dot map for that later.
I started building a worker. Normally I build a Warrior to let the city grow to size 2, but to accelerate expansion a Worker made sense, for chopping and to work that wheat tile once I got Agriculture.
My Warrior popped the goody hut next to him for a map. This is what it revealed:
Mostly territory northeast of London. Lots of tundra and ice. Barbs are going to come from that direction and be a problem for awhile. Nice to see some fur tiles up there, though--that holds promise for a northern outpost that can bust fog. Let's hope for a seafood resource hiddin off that northeastern coast.
After that, I turned the Warrior around and had him head southeast. I left the other tribal village for a later warrior to pop.
On his travels, my Warrior encountered my first neighbour. Remember how I said being next door to a psycho won't bode well for a cultural win? Well, guess who's off to my east:
Psycho-boy #1, Montezuma. Great.
And if that wasn't bad enough, the only source of copper I've thus far revealed is right on his doorstep:
Yes, there's stone there too. However, if you recall the streamlined tech path to Redcoats, Masonry was a tech to delay for awhile to ensure any Great Prophets would pop desired techs. I probably will build Stonehenge, in London, along with the Oracle. A city northeast of London, with more floodplains tiles, will likely be the commerce/science city, where the Great Library will be built. Gotta work on that dotmap...
And yes, Monty founded Hinduism. Well, good for him. That means his capital is a holy city, making it an even more attractive target for an early war. I'm already thinking along those lines: build a city right next to the copper, whip some Axes, and go after Monty right away.
In fact, I almost sent my Warrior over to try to snag a worker from him, but decided exploring was more important and the lake was a barrier. So I turned the warrior south along the lakeshore. He soon came across a hut that he popped for experience. He's got Woodsman II now for super-scouthood.
Meanwhile, my Worker completed and I changed the build queue in London:
The Worker chopped the first Warrior (which also helped with the 2nd), and the latter went north to explore for awhile. I originally planned to swing him east to protect the copper city, which the Settler will found, while the second Warrior was to become London's first protector. However, the first warrior popped that northeast hut for some experience, and became another Woodsman II super-scout, who will explore and likely fog-bust the north. So I'm going to make the second Warrior copper city's protector, and build London's protective Warrior after the Settler finishes.
Building the two Warriors gave London just enough time to grow to 2 pop before the Settler started building, and also just enough for Agriculture to become available to improve the wheat tile, which will help with the Settler, and with city growth for liberal use of the whip later on.
Anyway, here's what the map looks like in 2920:
Like I said, with Monty to my east and barbs to my north, that copper is going to be crucial, so my next city goes there. I'm thinking of the tile on the lakeshore between the copper and the rice. Not the greatest location, as it has two peaks and one desert tile in its fat cross, and it's uncomfortably close to Monty as well as being far from the capital. But copper is copper and I need it. A city to the east of London, in the gap, will come soon afterwards.
I have some lovely land to the south of me, but there has got to be some other civs down there. Once my 1st Woodsman recovers from his two recent wolf attacks, he'll head south. I'm in a good position to expand into that territory.
Here's the game save, and I await your thoughts:
Ha, Monty as your next door neighbor. I'm glad to see you didn't bother even attempting to snag a Worker. Monty makes a poor target (even though he's priority #1 on your To Kill list). Even then, it would have been tough with the lake, and the culture monster that's early religon would have prevented you from having any access whatsoever to his fat cross within the next couple of turns anyway.
I myself ended up founding on the western coast, 1NE of the Wheat there, which netted me riverside Wheat (5/1/1) and Fish (5/0/3), plus three Flood Plains, which I promptly Cottaged.
I really don't think you need Stonehenge. I know the GPP seem worthwhile, but you hardly need those either. Actually, you don't really need much of anything. On this difficulty level, a pure CS slingshot (research through CoL, The Oracle for CS) is very easy; it's so amazingly easy that to even bother building Stonehenge would be a waste of time (1 pop whipped Obelisks more than suffice, and you're almost guaranteed Confuscianism with this start).
I think my two biggest problems were settling so far from Monty (giving him too much room to expand into), and...well, there really are no other problems. Financial is a beast, and with those Flood Plains it will really take off.
I would almost suggest not pissing off Monty too soon, but I know that's not your style, Sisiutil (wow, now there's a place that Sis seemed inappropriate). Do with him as you will, but, if you leverage the Fin/Exp combo right, you can rocket to Redcoats with ease. It really is a great trait combination, better in many regards than Fin/Phi, I think.
I myself ended up founding on the western coast, 1NE of the Wheat there, which netted me riverside Wheat (5/1/1) and Fish (5/0/3), plus three Flood Plains, which I promptly Cottaged.
I really don't think you need Stonehenge. I know the GPP seem worthwhile, but you hardly need those either. Actually, you don't really need much of anything. On this difficulty level, a pure CS slingshot (research through CoL, The Oracle for CS) is very easy; it's so amazingly easy that to even bother building Stonehenge would be a waste of time (1 pop whipped Obelisks more than suffice, and you're almost guaranteed Confuscianism with this start).
I think my two biggest problems were settling so far from Monty (giving him too much room to expand into), and...well, there really are no other problems. Financial is a beast, and with those Flood Plains it will really take off.
I would almost suggest not pissing off Monty too soon, but I know that's not your style, Sisiutil (wow, now there's a place that Sis seemed inappropriate). Do with him as you will, but, if you leverage the Fin/Exp combo right, you can rocket to Redcoats with ease. It really is a great trait combination, better in many regards than Fin/Phi, I think.
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
I would say get that copper online pronto. At some point, you will need a butt load of axemen. Probably about the time Monty starts to think he can demand stupid things--or sooner if you get nervous...
Red = my suggested primary sites, blue = auxilary sites (subject to change at the whim of the masses), purple X = need to explore before deciding where to build, yellow site = your suggestion for copper site, which i disagree with for the red site...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Thanks, Betafor. I think I like your Coppertown suggestion better--my first was based solely on the location of the copper and rice, not on its relation to other potential cities. I was going to do a dotmap and may have come to the same conclusion as you, but it's very nice to have it done for me! 
The only problem I see is a lot of wasted tiles between the NE and SE cities. I'd be tempted to move the NE city south or east or both a little. I suspect Hans and several others will weigh in on city sites.
I'd like to see if I can snag that gems tile too, but I have to explore some more, and I have some bigger fish to fry. Not to mention any of this depends very much on the "cooperation" of the AI civs.
The only problem I see is a lot of wasted tiles between the NE and SE cities. I'd be tempted to move the NE city south or east or both a little. I suspect Hans and several others will weigh in on city sites.
I'd like to see if I can snag that gems tile too, but I have to explore some more, and I have some bigger fish to fry. Not to mention any of this depends very much on the "cooperation" of the AI civs.
Hans Lemurson
Prince
I basicly agree with that dotmap, except on 2 minor points:
1. I would hesitate in my placement of the NE city until we find out more information about what resources might be gained or lost by its different placings.
2. SOS Settle on Silk. Settling on the silk-tile to the south of London will yield a decent city location, and will contribute influence over the gems in the southlands. Frees up a litttle more room for the POS territory east of London. Also, that city will imediately pay for itself. This is the strongest build in that region in the short run.
In the long run though, you will face some difficult dotmapping methinks, so I might turn out to be wrong on one or both of those points. What is obvious though, is that if you want copper, and want to deny it to Monty, You gotta get yo' ass over there ASAP.
Not that it matters now, but controlling incense is going to be devilishly difficult.
The northern, frozen area of this continent is painfully large. Hopefully there will be some sea-resources or fringe locations that will enable its settlement.
1. I would hesitate in my placement of the NE city until we find out more information about what resources might be gained or lost by its different placings.
2. SOS Settle on Silk. Settling on the silk-tile to the south of London will yield a decent city location, and will contribute influence over the gems in the southlands. Frees up a litttle more room for the POS territory east of London. Also, that city will imediately pay for itself. This is the strongest build in that region in the short run.
In the long run though, you will face some difficult dotmapping methinks, so I might turn out to be wrong on one or both of those points. What is obvious though, is that if you want copper, and want to deny it to Monty, You gotta get yo' ass over there ASAP.
Not that it matters now, but controlling incense is going to be devilishly difficult.
The northern, frozen area of this continent is painfully large. Hopefully there will be some sea-resources or fringe locations that will enable its settlement.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Those aren't wasted tiles, they're desert (and some plains) hills.. which means they are wasted anyways (unless they have a resource on them)
and Settling on Silk seems like a good idea (still get the resources and gives an instant Road)
and Settling on Silk seems like a good idea (still get the resources and gives an instant Road)
Just keep in mind that NE will probably be the strongest commerce city you have for the next....oh, I dunno, rest of the game (unless the remainder of the continent has some better terrain; who knows), and that Copper is as much a priority to you as it is to Montezuma, who, while being a little bit tech deprived always, is an AI, and it seems can "see" what resources will pop.
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
My try at it.
Some annotation. London, Blue Harbor, and Redcoat Hill are pretty obvious choices. Sows Ear (pink) is another powerhouse commerce center. Yellow Brick is a support city - During the renaissance, it works the cottages in London's Cross, or Sows Ear's cross, so that when those cities grow, the new pop can start working Towns immediately. The tiles that don't overlap - maybe those are farms, early on, so that YB can more quickly grow into the cottages.
Yellow Brick doesn't need any food (long term), but you want to irrigate the Wheat. So that line runs from the oasis, as denoted by the blue arrow.
Black Dot is just a fishing village, occassionally borrowing London's wheat and cows to whip out the buildings it needs to work the sea.
Green Quarry collects the stone. I couldn't come up with a reason to prefer any of those four locations. I think you can make a case for the southern most if you have the culture issue solved.
For Coppertino, my prefered location is Grey's Bullseye. It gives up the stone, but also two mountains and a desert tile vs Betafor's placement.
The gambit play, which I think is intriguing, is to place the city at Grey Cross. It looks like a better commerce city placement, which though not cutting Monty from the copper physically, may do so tactically.
(Grey Ring was my guess at Sisutil's impulse).
As for specialization, it really isn't clear to me which way to go. I think Oxford/National Epic at Redcoat Hill, Heroic Epic/Globe Theater in London, trusting that you'll find a location for Ironworks later. (You could also try Heroic Epic/Globe Theater at Blue Harbor, but I'm not convinced that the Globe will do much good there when whipping days are over).
Blue Harbor wouldn't be too bad as a National Epic city either - you could run scientists and engineers there, and ship them to Redcoat Hill (which becomes Oxford/Ironworks... if you can stand to convert all those luscious towns to production).
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if good play calls for moving the palace to Redcoat Hill.
Edit: I considered mapping a city onto the Silk, and that city looks great, but I hated the implications for the rest of the map. Maybe with more information about the south
Some annotation. London, Blue Harbor, and Redcoat Hill are pretty obvious choices. Sows Ear (pink) is another powerhouse commerce center. Yellow Brick is a support city - During the renaissance, it works the cottages in London's Cross, or Sows Ear's cross, so that when those cities grow, the new pop can start working Towns immediately. The tiles that don't overlap - maybe those are farms, early on, so that YB can more quickly grow into the cottages.
Yellow Brick doesn't need any food (long term), but you want to irrigate the Wheat. So that line runs from the oasis, as denoted by the blue arrow.
Black Dot is just a fishing village, occassionally borrowing London's wheat and cows to whip out the buildings it needs to work the sea.
Green Quarry collects the stone. I couldn't come up with a reason to prefer any of those four locations. I think you can make a case for the southern most if you have the culture issue solved.
For Coppertino, my prefered location is Grey's Bullseye. It gives up the stone, but also two mountains and a desert tile vs Betafor's placement.
The gambit play, which I think is intriguing, is to place the city at Grey Cross. It looks like a better commerce city placement, which though not cutting Monty from the copper physically, may do so tactically.
(Grey Ring was my guess at Sisutil's impulse).
As for specialization, it really isn't clear to me which way to go. I think Oxford/National Epic at Redcoat Hill, Heroic Epic/Globe Theater in London, trusting that you'll find a location for Ironworks later. (You could also try Heroic Epic/Globe Theater at Blue Harbor, but I'm not convinced that the Globe will do much good there when whipping days are over).
Blue Harbor wouldn't be too bad as a National Epic city either - you could run scientists and engineers there, and ship them to Redcoat Hill (which becomes Oxford/Ironworks... if you can stand to convert all those luscious towns to production).
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if good play calls for moving the palace to Redcoat Hill.
Edit: I considered mapping a city onto the Silk, and that city looks great, but I hated the implications for the rest of the map. Maybe with more information about the south
pigswill
fly (one day)
I'm not sure you need to worry about settling every tile; you've got a lot of desert and plains around. Copper city is a short term problem;getting copper in first ring means naff location with muito desert, copper in second ring means culture medium to snag it which may delay things. What about diverting (what already) to AH to see if there's hosses around to chariot rush monte early on? Getting rid of monte early actually favours culture victory!
theimmortal1
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 539
This is the one game where I would have stolen a worker from Monty.
Heres why:
You have two woodsman 2 warriors
That is extremely powerful. Set those two bad boys in a Monty Forest, or even better a Forested Hill, and they would never ever be taken out. Monty would have been effectively killed. Obviously you wouldn't be able to take his cities, but he wouldn't work any tiles or settle any new cities.
Most people use woodsman 2 warriors as super scouts, but I think that takes away from their true advantage.
Heres why:
You have two woodsman 2 warriors
That is extremely powerful. Set those two bad boys in a Monty Forest, or even better a Forested Hill, and they would never ever be taken out. Monty would have been effectively killed. Obviously you wouldn't be able to take his cities, but he wouldn't work any tiles or settle any new cities.
Most people use woodsman 2 warriors as super scouts, but I think that takes away from their true advantage.
theimmortal1 said:
Well, without getting into spoiler territory (revealing the contents of unknown tiles that ultimately amounted to some 30 square tiles or so pissed off someone in ALC2), the problem is that there was no conceivable way to get at a Worker before it ran off into Monty's capital. While the spoiler here would be similar, I think the fact that something like nine or so tiles of his capital's fat cross are lake explain why (it's hard to see in the screenshot, but if you were to actually explore it in game, you could determine this based solely off the tiles exposed in the screenshot). Ok, it's actually impossible to see in the screenshot, but if the cultural overlay was on, you could determine this; the thing is, there's no cultural boundaries in the resource world view.
Add to this that he founded Hinduism in his capital and, even if you were lucky enough to even see a Worker in somewhere in his fat cross, it's highly unlikely you'd be in any position, or could even possibly be in any position short of World Buildering a boat into there, to ever steal a Worker.
Stifling him, on the other hand, with the Woodsman II Warriors is possible.
Dr Elmer Jiggle
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pigswill said:
I agree. It remains to be seen whether cultural is or isn't the right choice here, but Montezuma isn't a problem.
As Sisiutil said about ALC2 (or 3, I forget -- the one with the weird-shaped continent and Catherine as the immediate neighbor), the problem there was that Montezuma had Catherine as a buffer. That meant he couldn't be taken out early, so he turned into a mid-game problem which proved to be an unwelcome diversion from cultural buildup. Having him local means:
- He's easy to get rid of.
- After you do that you will have gained some nice territory.
- More importantly, after you doi that you will have gained a holy city and a religion.
All of those play nicely with a cultural victory if other factors cooperate, and you certainly ought to be able to have 3 strong, early cottage cities in this game.
I usually like finding Montezuma as a neighbor, because it makes so many of the early game choices easy. At this point you already know exactly who your first enemy will be. Everyone else implicitly becomes at least a temporary ally. You really don't have any difficult diplomatic decisions to make until Montezuma is dead.
