Algorithm for goody hut techs - randomness broken?

[kawu]

Hello,

I've been an extreme player with Civ at all times. I haven't played the game for years... I usually start(ed) all my games setting science to zero and then I just try to grab every goody hut on my continent to gain tech - as far as it's possible.

Now when playing, I never ever get any random technologies from the goody huts - they're always the same no matter how often I try. (NOTE: I'm an obsessive game-loader. )

I remembered Civ3 to have completely random results returned from goody huts - or more specifically random techs. But when I save, then try, try, try there's never any other but one fixed tech. It always starts in the order Pottery - Masonry etc. The important thing is it's not entirely fixed throughout the game, somehow depending on the game flow I had one goody hut return Horseback Riding and in another game branch (something went wrong) Mysticism. But per turn it completely constant. It's frustrating... and no fun. I played two complete games without making Monarchy anytime before 1500 BC or so, because the goody hut tech algorithm would give me most other techs first and then there aren't anymore huts left.

It appears to be some rather strange, old-fashioned, very static algorithm which IIRC was used at the very beginning of the Civ3 patch/version numbers.

I just quit playing my current game because of that. Note that I used Civ3 pre-1.29f to create my current game so I could make use of the "multi" trick to reveal the whole map to see where the goody huts are located. laaame I know

Could it be that some of the algorithms are saved in the SAV games somehow? Or at least that there's some kind of Civ save game version number so that there's an old algorithm in charge for the goody hut tech returned next?

I have no idea. Do you?

Again, seen per-turn, loaded dozens of times always yields the same tech with me all the time and it really sucks.

Does anybody have a clue here?

Kawu

PS: Difficulty level of course is deity...

 

[TheOverseer714]

AFAIK, the goody huts go in order of tech cost, starting with lowest available. You can't pop a hut and get a tech you have or are researching. It's very simple actually.

 

[vmxa]

In my thread on Regent tutorial I have the list of the huts and what they may yield per level for expansions and non expansion civs.

The level you are on affects the techs, the higher the lesss the odds are of getting a tech. Why on earth you would turn off research in a low level game, I have no idea as you forgo a shot at a leader. Well I cannot recall, if that was part of vanilla or not.

Still no reason to not research the cheapest tech. I doubt one could pop very many huts on Regent or lower and not get a tech, when you have not researched. Just play above emperor and no huts, you won't have to worry about not getting a tech from them.

 

[Maimonides]

Now when playing, I never ever get any random technologies from the goody huts - they're always the same no matter how often I try. (NOTE: I'm an obsessive game-loader. )

Could it be that some of the algorithms are saved in the SAV games somehow? Or at least that there's some kind of Civ save game version number so that there's an old algorithm in charge for the goody hut tech returned next?

I have no idea. Do you?

Again, seen per-turn, loaded dozens of times always yields the same tech with me all the time and it really sucks.

Does anybody have a clue here?

You almost certainly have Preserve Random Seed checked. It's an option at the bottom of the screen when you are selecting your civ at the beginning of the game. Just uncheck Preserve Random Seed so that you can reload the autosave & try for a different result. If you have Preserve Random Seed checked, you'll get the same result every time you reload the game save...

 

[kawu]

You almost certainly have Preserve Random Seed checked. It's an option at the bottom of the screen when you are selecting your civ at the beginning of the game. Just uncheck Preserve Random Seed so that you can reload the autosave & try for a different result. If you have Preserve Random Seed checked, you'll get the same result every time you reload the game save...

I remember that one...

I don't think I changed it from the default for the game I created. I just started a new game it was initially set to false (unchecked).

Might the defaults have changed from the original Civ3 version to 1.29f? I created the game with Civ3 1.03 IIRC. Chances are that setting is present in the save games.

Is it?

Karsten

 

[kawu]

In my thread on Regent tutorial I have the list of the huts and what they may yield per level for expansions and non expansion civs.

The level you are on affects the techs, the higher the lesss the odds are of getting a tech.

Which "level"? *shrug* Got a link?

Why on earth you would turn off research in a low level game, I have no idea as you forgo a shot at a leader. Well I cannot recall, if that was part of vanilla or not.

Yes, leaders were/are in Vanilla. I usually go to war right away, also for the enemy to trigger the "send all your units my way instead of exploring mode". This will give me my leaders right away.

Still no reason to not research the cheapest tech. I doubt one could pop very many huts on Regent or lower and not get a tech, when you have not researched. Just play above emperor and no huts, you won't have to worry about not getting a tech from them.

My strategy has been to get money as quickly as possible to buy the low-level techs from neighbors and maybe buy workers for <30 gold, too. This will increase building by 50% and is good for roads and mines, which are reduced from 3 to 2 and 6 to 4 then. Note, this might not be the best strategy, but I did it anyway. Correct me if that's ineffective.

So the recommendation is to research low techs right away, which my neighbors will likely have anyway? I always start with maxed out opponent civs...

Just play above emperor and no huts, you won't have to worry about not getting a tech from them.

I didn't really get this one, can you please explain again?

Karsten

 

[kawu]

See http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ3/playersetup_img6.jpg

There's no such "Preserve Random Seed" setting in the original Civ3. I'm pretty sure the original "algorithm" was to preserve the current seed (checked), am I right?

Is there any save game editor to inspect my SAV files for the random seed setting? If not I could equally as well inspect the files with a hex editor if I know the place where to find it.

Karsten

 

[Sparthage]

Yes, leaders were/are in Vanilla. I usually go to war right away, also for the enemy to trigger the "send all your units my way instead of exploring mode". This will give me my leaders right away.

I believe he meant scientific great leaders. Those weren't in Civ3 Vanilla as far as I know. You get them by researching a tech before everyone else. You have a 4% (?) chance of getting one if you are non scientific and a 8% (?) chance if you are scientific.

 

[kawu]

OK, I just tried a new game with 1.29f. My settler repeatedly walks into a villiage and the only tech I receive is Ceremonial Burial. This means three things:

1. There are no tech seeds stored in a SAV game.
2. The "Preserve Random Seed" is not for finding techs, e.g. it is for battles only (probably other things, too).
3. The tech you get is somehow seeded and depending on the number of points needed to research.

I could think of an algorithm like this: "hey, just return the cheapest one eligible for the current player, if there is more than one pick one according to the current (non-battle) seed".

However, it can't be that way. It's similar, but not quite. I was in a situation where I had to reload after finding Horseback Riding, I had to go back ~3 turns or so. With my new gaming branch, I can't reconstruct what I made differently, I now find Mysticism. My above algo can't work that way, because Horsback Riding currently costs 28 turns and Mysticism costs 22 turns. Maybe it works with levels, that is HR and Myst are on the same level. Maybe Iron Working, too? I have no idea.

I now wonder: how you can adjust your gameplay to affect your tech findings in goody huts?

BTW: Does anybody have a resource to the number of science points needed for each tech?

Karsten

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Which "level"? *shrug* Got a link?

Difficulty level:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/goodyhuts.php
That is a Conquests article, so I have no idea how that would change for Vanilla, but ....

My strategy has been to get money as quickly as possible to buy the low-level techs from neighbors and maybe buy workers for <30 gold, too. This will increase building by 50% and is good for roads and mines, which are reduced from 3 to 2 and 6 to 4 then. Note, this might not be the best strategy, but I did it anyway. Correct me if that's ineffective.

More Workers is almost always good, especially Slaves, as they don't cost upkeep. True, they aren't as fast as your own Workers, but still good.

BTW: Does anybody have a resource to the number of science points needed for each tech?

If you download Civ Assist 2, it should tell you in one of the options. I don't have it (I use MapStat, which doesn't have that feature that I can tell), so I don't know how to use it. http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21

 

[Maimonides]

I remember that one...

I don't think I changed it from the default for the game I created. I just started a new game it was initially set to false (unchecked).

Might the defaults have changed from the original Civ3 version to 1.29f? I created the game with Civ3 1.03 IIRC. Chances are that setting is present in the save games.

Is it?

Yes. You can't change the Preserve Random Seed setting once the game is underway. You have to start an entirely new game if you don't like that setting.

OK, I just tried a new game with 1.29f. My settler repeatedly walks into a villiage and the only tech I receive is Ceremonial Burial. This means three things:

1. There are no tech seeds stored in a SAV game.
2. The "Preserve Random Seed" is not for finding techs, e.g. it is for battles only (probably other things, too).

Not true. If the game started with Preserve Random Seed unchecked, then you can reload saves & have a chance at a different result each time. The seed is stored if you started the game with Preserve random Seed checked.

3. The tech you get is somehow seeded and depending on the number of points needed to research.

Then you're playing a game with Preserve Random Seed selected...

Welcome to CFC BTW.

 

[kawu]

Yes. You can't change the Preserve Random Seed setting once the game is underway. You have to start an entirely new game if you don't like that setting.

Yeah, I had to start over because of that earlier, but IIRC I did uncheck it. At least all my battles are completely random, though tech in goody huts isn't, so there must be something different.

Not true. If the game started with Preserve Random Seed unchecked, then you can reload saves & have a chance at a different result each time. The seed is stored if you started the game with Preserve random Seed checked.

As I said, battles are random, but the tech I find is still somewhat constant. And there's not much I can do about it. Seen per turn (load, try, load, try, ...) will always yield the same tech. Loading an older save game and having alternative techs on the same level available for finding somehow can result in an alternative tech. Not to say the same tech might reappear as before. I just haven't found out yet what changes the "goody hut tech seed".

Then you're playing a game with Preserve Random Seed selected...

Nope. As I said, I've just created a new game and ran into the nearest hut. In that specific turn, I always get the same tech. (I tried 100 times or so, I got Ceremonial Burial ~20 times).

Welcome to CFC BTW.

I appreciate it.

Karsten

 

[vmxa]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by vmxa
In my thread on Regent tutorial I have the list of the huts and what they may yield per level for expansions and non expansion civs.

The level you are on affects the techs, the higher the lesss the odds are of getting a tech.

Which "level"? *shrug* Got a link?"

Well you could find it in the Strategy Articles on the first page, no need for a link. I see another article already linked anyway.

As you can see from the chart as you move up, the odds of a tech go down. They are quite hight below emperor and not bad at emperor. The issues becomes the barbs are tougher as you move up, to the point I do not attack the with less than an attack 3 unit on Sid.

I would say there is no way to play on Regentr or lower and pop 9 or 10 huts and not get at least one tech. Yes it could happen, but I would be surprised. You never stated the level you are playing, so we have no idea what to make of the bad luck.

If you are on emperor on pan maps with the default number of civs, you could go without a tech from a hut as you will not get to pop all that many.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by vmxa
Still no reason to not research the cheapest tech. I doubt one could pop very many huts on Regent or lower and not get a tech, when you have not researched. Just play above emperor and no huts, you won't have to worry about not getting a tech from them.

My strategy has been to get money as quickly as possible to buy the low-level techs from neighbors and maybe buy workers for <30 gold, too. This will increase building by 50% and is good for roads and mines, which are reduced from 3 to 2 and 6 to 4 then. Note, this might not be the best strategy, but I did it anyway. Correct me if that's ineffective.

So the recommendation is to research low techs right away, which my neighbors will likely have anyway? I always start with maxed out opponent civs..."

Below emperor I would slef research and make whatever trades for techs that make sense. This will be only a few as it will not take long until I am so far ahead they will not offer any opportunities for trade anyway.

I am against buying tech, even on Sid. I would rather steal them. If someone has an optional tech and are otherwise backwards, then I would buy. I dislike feeding money to the better research civs. Why should I fund their research?

Regent and lower they will only have techs from huts and I have no interest in what they are doing. They are hapless. You cannot buy workers for 30 gold in Conquest. That was one of the problems corrected.


"Quote:
Originally Posted by vmxa
Just play above emperor and no huts, you won't have to worry about not getting a tech from them.

I didn't really get this one, can you please explain again?

Karsten "

If they are no huts in the game, you do not have to worry about not getting a tech form a hut.

BYW 1.21F added in the Preserve Seed option.

 

[kawu]

Hmm I still have problems following some of your remarks. I still can't find the page you recommended.

Then, "Sid" is not in Vanilla Civ3. The max level is deity. And I did write in my OP: "PS: Difficulty level of course is deity... "

Stealing tech is not possible, as you can see from my postings I'm about Horseback Riding etc. so I'm just at the start of the game, before 2500 BC.

Karsten

 

[kawu]

If you download Civ Assist 2, it should tell you in one of the options. I don't have it (I use MapStat, which doesn't have that feature that I can tell), so I don't know how to use it. http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=21

Thanks for the link. Too bad the program isn't working, I get two exceptions at startup and I can see only some buttons in the lower left but the window canvas is totally screwed.

Karsten

 

[vmxa]

Well why on earth would you be crying about huts on Deity? They are not going to be kind to human players and you would need to be an expansionist to even consider them. I did not see where you mentioned the level, but in the main huts are best not used above Emperor in any version.

So yes not getting any techs on deity is to be expected, though I cannot recall C3 that well as it has been nearly a decade, since PTW and C3C came out.

 

[kawu]

Well why on earth would you be crying about huts on Deity? They are not going to be kind to human players and you would need to be an expansionist to even consider them. I did not see where you mentioned the level, but in the main huts are best not used above Emperor in any version.

So yes not getting any techs on deity is to be expected, though I cannot recall C3 that well as it has been nearly a decade, since PTW and C3C came out.

Well, why on earth are huts considered to be of no value on Deity? You must be kidding. As I said, I'm not one of the fair players because I save and load whenever I can (which I also mentioned in my OP). Furthermore this means I rush out to the end of the world to find huts.

Whichever way you played the game, goody huts giving me tech is part of the game. But that's not what it's all about here. What it's actually about here is how to get the tech out of a hut that I'd like (if researchable) and how to influence that.

I know Civ5 is out and many are playing this right now, but I don't own it... I really umm... dislike hex games

Karsten

 

[Lord Emsworth]

You can't pop a hut and get a tech you have or are researching.

You can't pop a tech that you are researching as long as there are other techs available. You can get for instance Construction while you are researching it, if you have all other ancient age techs. [/pedantry]

 

[Ataxerxes]

Well, why on earth are huts considered to be of no value on Deity? You must be kidding. As I said, I'm not one of the fair players because I save and load whenever I can (which I also mentioned in my OP). Furthermore this means I rush out to the end of the world to find huts.

Whichever way you played the game, goody huts giving me tech is part of the game. But that's not what it's all about here. What it's actually about here is how to get the tech out of a hut that I'd like (if researchable) and how to influence that.

I know Civ5 is out and many are playing this right now, but I don't own it... I really umm... dislike hex games

Karsten

Huts are of no value on deity because they usually produce barbarians. You seldom get a favorable event and, let's face it, getting a map ain't very exciting. I suppose if you do a lot of reloading (this is what you do for fun?) huts might be worthwhile.

The only way to influence the tech from a hut is to get the cheaper techs yourself before popping. If I can, I like to trade for techs before popping a hut. They the tech is more likely to be good. Also, Expansionist Civs get better results from huts so techs are more likely. Besides this, you really don't have much influence. I usually trade for things like Ceremonial Burial while I'm on the Republic beeline.

If I read the reviews of 5 correctly, you probably made the right decision. About 1/2 of the Civ4 forum are people who tried 5 and hated it. I wouldn't waste my money.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Whichever way you played the game, goody huts giving me tech is part of the game. But that's not what it's all about here. What it's actually about here is how to get the tech out of a hut that I'd like (if researchable) and how to influence that.

You cannot do a lot about it.

In a typical situation at the beginning of the game with the Russians for instance, you have the choice between Warrior Code (WC) and Ceremonial Burial (CB). You'll get CB if you don't set your research, or if set your research to any other tech besides CB. You'll get WC if you set your research to CB.

Cases where you get a tech other than CB or WC in the given situation are probably heard of, but they are far and few between.