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Alignment

Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Valkrionn, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    So, I've decided to discuss some of the coming Alignment changes in a bit more detail. :mischief:


    Good, Evil, and what they actually mean

    This has always been a biggie. There are some things that people just expect to be Evil actions... Yet they are actually Good, in FfH. Take Basium, for example. This issue becomes exascerbated when you decide to include a Broader Alignments system (more on this later in the post), as now you are coming up with actions to affect your Moral (good/evil) alignment... Many of which will fall into the realm of traditional Good/Evil definitions.

    We decided to solve this in a fairly simple way... A new alignment axis, tentatively titled Allegiance, which represents which faction of gods you are aligned with. This alignment will have few in game effects, and is primarily to free up Moral alignment to be what we want.

    Broader Alignment Upgrade

    Right now, Broader Alignments (henceforth BA) is not implemented well. There are relatively few effects, first off, and second, it is a slider with maximum values... Meaning it is fairly easy to repeatedly change alignments.

    With the next major release, this will no longer be the case. Rather than store one value per alignment axis, we store two; One for each extreme. In other words, we will store one value for Good, and one for Evil. Your alignment will be determined by the ratio between these two values.

    The new system removes any real cap on maximum alignment; However, in order to maintain consistent ratio values, we will constrain the higher value to no more than twice the lower one. Alignment will always be 'Good / Evil' (or Lawful/Chaotic), meaning no matter what actual alignments a player has, the ratio will always fall between 0.5 and 2. Neutral will be arbitrarily determined to be anything where the two values are within 10% (0.9 to ~1.1); Anything higher will be Good (or Lawful), anything lower is Evil (or Chaotic).

    Why is this important? A few reasons. First, and most importantly IMO, it allows us to control a leader's alignment and how entrenched the leader is in said alignment, independently of one another. As an example, we could have a Bannor leader, highly Lawful Good... But have the Good alignment as, say, 10/5, while the Lawful alignment is 1000/500. While both yield an alignment of 2 (maximum), the first is extremely easy to change... Resulting in a leader who, while virtually always lawful, can be corrupted quite easily. This is something entirely impossible in any Fall from Heaven mod, atm.

    Secondly, as the above hints at, using the ratio between two cumulative values makes it progressively more difficult to flip your alignment back and forth. In other words, no more flipflopping alignment at the drop of a hat.

    Finally, by limiting neutral to such a narrow range (20%, total, while the other alignments each have 40), we have a situation that favors formation of rival alignment blocs, as opposed to now where virtually everyone becomes neutral. :lol:

    BA itself will become mandatory, and will be more fleshed out. Far more actions will affect your alignment.


    Allegiance?

    Let's go into more detail on this new axis, and what affects it.

    Allegiance will, as with all the others, have three main alignments; Loyalist, Unaligned, and Renegade. Each represents a faction of gods, much as Good/Evil does now.

    The current (tentative) plan is for any action that modifies the AC to modify this alignment; No other action will affect this alignment.

    It's only in game effect will be two-fold, centered on the Armageddon Counter; It will control the rate at which Hell spreads into your territory, and control how useful Hell is to you.

    The basic Hell spread formula will be something along the lines of this: Start with a default AC req (40). Multiply by your Allegiance value (ranging from 0.5 to 2). Assume a value of 0.75 for unowned lands. Yes, hell can and will spread even into the most staunchly Loyalist lands.

    You can go Loyalist, and be safe from hell unless the AC climbs very high... But be crippled by it when it finally does ravage your lands.

    You can go Renegade, and have hell spread through your lands quickly, at low AC values... But you will see benefits from Hell, primarily related to Mana generation.

    It's a fairly minimal mechanic, but IMO it's all that is truly needed here; A simple tradeoff, but one that provides a lot of strategic depth.



    So. After the next major release, we will have more rational Good/Evil alignments, a 3d alignment system, and mandatory, fully fleshed out and realized Broader Alignments. Fun. :goodjob:
     
  2. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    If there are any questions on exactly how BA will work, feel free to ask. We don't have specifics on what events, civics, etc will modify it; But I can go into detail on the mechanical side of it. ;)
     
  3. arcticnightwolf

    arcticnightwolf Emperor

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    just a small question ... wouldn't it be better, if you wrote a blog-post and put here link to it, rather than writing it all here ? just saying, because the blog looks pretty much abandoned ...

    anyway, nice post
     
  4. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    ...Possibly. But I was at work when writing this, and didn't feel like signing into the blog when I was already signed in here. :lol:
     
  5. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    BTW: For full disclosure, the new method for determining alignment is entirely, 100% the idea of Xienwolf. ;)
     
  6. maglock

    maglock Coatlann Tamer

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    So this then begs the question:

    Has Xienwolf come out of hiatus? :eek:

    If so, AWESOME ! :woohoo:
     
  7. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Warlord

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    My personal view is that this puts Kael's original ideas into a subordinate position, and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. But from a gameplay perspective, this new system seems fine, and it definetely puts forward several possibilities. I'll be playing this version only because it comes with Aurora Invicta, though.
     
  8. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Nope. It was plundered from the Fall Further team forum (which I and several others have had access to since well BEFORE said hiatus), and is quite an old idea.

    Just finally getting around to revisiting BA, and thus this idea resurfaced.

    It absolutely does.

    It's been tossed around extensively amongst the team. In the end, we can either maintain Kael's version of Good/Evil, and forget all about BA... Or we can go with the more common sense meanings, and have a fully fleshed out BA.

    There is no midground; What we have now simply creates conflicts. It must be one or the other, and we choose to implement BA.
     
  9. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Warlord

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    Do what you must, I've already resigned myself to it.
     
  10. Verdian

    Verdian King

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    I am having trouble with the same thing. That was what made this mod my preferred one, in the past. Even the added lore, primarily new civilizations, could be turned off in the current release. I am guessing this will no longer be the case. I fee like FFH2 has been cancelled all over again.

    I am still going to try the new RiFE, it just feels incredibly unsettling.
     
  11. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    As others have said, the idea behind 1.4 (or whatever we end up calling it) is to take concepts that have been added by Fall Further and RifE, and include them fully.

    Promotions are all being redone. Units are redone, with many falling into new unitcombats. Buildings are redone. The techtree is massively redone. All civilizations will have their bonuses revisited, as will all religions.

    It's not a small patch, and after this RifE should be mostly stable, or at least won't see many large shakeups of mechanics.
     
  12. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Warlord

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    Well that's good to hear.
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Hopefully there won't be any (or at least many) half-implemented, fragmentary mechanics, either.

    Some (such as Corporations) are probably going to be left alone or temporarily removed, as new mechanics will come after 1.4... But hey. Can't do EVERYTHING at once. :lol:
     
  14. Verdian

    Verdian King

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    Has multiplayer been tested as well?
     
  15. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    No, but that will be a priority post-1.4 (as will AI).
     
  16. black_imperator

    black_imperator Emperor

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    just a few examples to illustrate the new alignment systems :


    There will be a large variability inside aligments.To be more explicit, two factors will be taken into account :
    -How far are they into their alignment? ie Hyborem is absolute evil while someone like Mahala isn't so much
    -How easy is it to sway them ? ie while some people are sure of their ways and won't change ( paradoxically perpentach is the one coming to my mind right now, he'll never be less chaotic), some can and will adopt change more easily (some Bannor leaders can easily become like Basium for example)


    And that combination is the strength of the new system , we have leaders who are completely set in their ways, whether they are extreme ( Hyborem as Evil, Perpentach as Chaotic) or more reasonable ( someone like Valledia is pretty stable but don't have extreme positions) , and some who can change much easier among the core of leaders like Tasunke the mercenary, or even among those who defend extreme views, for example Ethne the White who is purely good but easily tempted ( cf some pedia texts of a discussion between her and hyborem)

    So To conclude , Hyborem would be an unchangable extremely evil guy, while Basium would be much less evil but possibly as difficult to change as Hybo

    Hope it's clearer now
     
  17. CurseUppl

    CurseUppl The bureaucracy expands.

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    Good to hear! Also good to hear on multiplayer fix, because that's what really kills FFH for me, that I can't play it with my friends.

    I like this whole BA system, it seems (from the start) to be what FFH needs to maintain proper alignments and ensure excellent high-AC wars between aligned blocs of civilizations. Those games are the best unlike the (too often) games with AV Bannor and Order Sheim, and the rest of the map covered in FoL civs.

    Who knows, with the 5 fold system, (5, right? Good, evil, lawful, chaotic and neutral?), you might get four end game power blocs, two good, two evil, but each with a different way of doing things.

    Also, might I suggest making neutral a more... proactive alignment? In all FFH versions, neutral just seems to be the dead end alignment. Perhaps they could have their own goals to forward (without defeating the purpose of being neutral) so that, heaven forbid, if a game is neutral heavy, it can still be tense. If at all even possible.

    Lastly, I remember Kael talking about, years ago, that when Infernal Pact is researched, a gateway to hell was supposed to open (effectively opening up a second map, perhaps like the Heroes 3 underground map), instead of Hyborem coming to the surface and spreading his .

    Is this still impossible?

    Anyway, glad to hear that RifE is still breathing!
     
  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Technically there are two different neutrals, one on each axis. (Well, three, if you include the new axis, but it's not as important :p).

    Neutral will be a relatively uncommon alignment; One tentative idea is to tie certain bonuses to alignment, such as maintenance reduction to Lawful. If this is done, Neutral would in fact gain the most unique bonuses, as it is the hardest to maintain (there are NO bonuses pulling you towards neutral, only to either end of the spectrum; With neutral being a narrower range than the other alignments, this makes it hard to maintain).

    It unfortunately is still impossible. I think Sephi may be trying to do it, but it's something I'll believe when I see.
     

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