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All about mistakes (Deity, Fractal)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pedro78, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    Hi everyone,

    Been away from Civ for a while. Tried to get back into it several times without much success, so I thought I'd post a forum game.

    Why "all about mistakes"? Well at first when I played Civ and made a mistake, I'd simply reload, then make another mistake and reload again. But eventually I didn't find this playstyle very rewarding. So I began to quit games extremely often, because when I made a mistake and realized it I just couldn't play on. Thus I was finishing very few (if any) games, and it wasn't very rewarding either. It took me a very long time to realize that no game was perfect.

    So the spirit of this write-up is for me to reflect on every mistake that I make, and keep playing. But as I'm sure that I'll forget some of them, y'all are very welcome to point out any mistake that I didn't notice. And if you wanna post a shadow game, by all means please do :thumbsup:

    Anyways, enough chatter.

    Leader is Stalin. Start:


    Settings:

    (Used random climate / sea level)

    Oh and it's BUFFY005 btw
     

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  2. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    Write-up of the not-too-sloppy 39 turns + a couple of saves. (.pdf attached, was much faster than using the image links on the forum).
     

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  3. JSS

    JSS Prince

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    Welcome back. I downloaded the pdf but as it was opening I closed it immediately because I might do a shadow on this, so I don't have any comments on the game yet.
     
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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Very nice to see you back Pedro!
    Preoccupied with another game right now, but I think I'll want to shadow this one.
     
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  5. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    To T70. Taking things quite slowly on this one, enjoying it a lot for now.
     

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  6. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    To T118. A bit sloppier this time.
     

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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Downloaded the game now, thoughts about the starting screen:

    I like the combo of abundant forest and Agg. Perhaps some neighbour have a juicy flatland captial with the pigs and corn that we lack?
    Marble and ind make me think about oracle->MC.
     
  8. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    Yup, looks like a great setup for an Axe rush. That involves finding Copper though.

    From my experience, Oracle is very rarely a good move on Deity, mostly because you must build it before T55 to have a ~75% chance to get it. Especially with high seas you usually wanna secure land instead.
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I know I have been extremly against anything in the myst line previously, but I have seriously started to put more value in that path.

    Not sure if it's applicable here though, starting with hunting makes it even more problematic.
    And I'm not saying that it's a good option, it's just that I personally have given this path even less credit than it's due (if thats possible). And I'm trying to cultivate the habit of thinking about it, whenever I see marble. :)


    Basically the idea is to go through polytheism, that way you can get a few marble-powered chops into ToAr. And the failgold make the venture justified.
    You do have time to re-evaluate if you want to go to PH once you are there.
    If you do go, you sometimes get a separate failgold injection from oracle, and like 25% of the time you get a juicy free tech. Even monarchy is good.
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played until T39 now, I'll try to keep to the same brakepoints as you @Pedro78, and write before I read, so that we can spot different mistakes! :)

    To T39:
    Spoiler :



    I dislike settling on coast w/o seafood, but leaving a 2 hammer city center hurts. With my luck there is probaby deer to the east as well. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    I ignore deer posiblites and move scout westwards, seeing floodplains I decide that I want to move.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    Now I probably get abit greedy, but I move 1W again for even more floodplains. Forfeiting the cows. Perhaps I can ignore AH altogether?
    Perhaps it would have been better to lose one more turn and instead settle 1NW? That would have kept the cows and it would have been 4 FPs instead of 5 in the capital, gaining one health.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    This flooplain valley looks like a slice of heaven! Need for farm a couple of them though. Ag->BW? Postoning the decision until T5.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    Oh, we have Lincoln very close. He is a nice target who I think builds wonders quite frequently, and is often hated by everyone. Unfortunatly his capital is on a hill, so my dreams of an Agg axerush is getting dimmer.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    After agri, I go for BW. Starting to snail with the scout to not lose him.
    Probably want to settle a city on a hill toward Lincoln, to claim more FPs/land and also get a nice outpost and a spearhead into his culture for the comming war.
    Land looks abit cramped, and I think that just fogbusting, or building a Agg-barracks and protecting myself with coverpromoted warriors is doable.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    And then I spot ivory! That seals the deal, Lincoln will be stomped under elephant hoves.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    The kind AIs are helping me to spawnbust the peninsula.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    And ofcourse there is no copper....
    That cements the plan. I'll settle one more city toward Lincoln, and then one to claim ivory (and forests). Cottage up and go for a construction war.
    OK filler city 3S1E of capital, but I'll probably just ignore fishing and leave posibility for engineering bulb.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    T39, settler in transit. I revolt to slavery. Worker is starting to mine. Could be a mistake to not continue chopping. But I'm in for the long haul now and feel like I want to save every forest for elephants.
    I try to leave forests in checkerboard pattern to maximize chance for regrowth.

    Monty found me as well and It's possible that these lunatics will just smash Lincoln before I have the time to build up. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pedro78 Have read your first writeup now.
    Won't have time to play the next turnset untill possibly tonight.
    Nice to see that we already done some different mistakes. :)

    Spoiler :

    The desert stone I disregarded completely which is probably a mistake. With both marble and stone readily available masonry and pyramids would have been nice. Especially since we are IND.
    It's difficult for me when I see one possible plan (first it was axerush, then it was elepults), I tend to get tunnel-vision and forget about evaluating other options.

    I was happy to see WvO in your writeup, that means that there are more possible targets for the loonies.

    I'm about to ruin fish on T40 because I didn't scout that area properly.

    I don't get your placement of StPeters. Is that a mistake or is there something I don't understand?
    Isn't settlement on either the stone, or on one of the elefants a superior option?
    Or just 1W for 1 turn earlier settlement?

     
  12. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :

    This, IMO, was the biggest mistake of your turnset. I really don't see any good T0 moves other than settling on the marble. Losing 1T + moving away from a 2H city tile in favor of 2 FPs is almost never worth it, especially when you start with Hunting and no Agri.
    Then, moving 1W further next turn was even worse, as moving away from the cows denied you any kind of early-game production. And 5 FPs don't beat 2FPs until quite late in the game. I think most people underestimate the value of Plains Cows. It's not a great food tile, but it's still a 6-yield tile available very early in the game, so its value is huge (better than grassland copper for instance).

    You'll have a bit more early commerce than I did, but also a lot less production. Being able to squeeze in 2 more cities than I did will be helpful though.

    I like your fogbusting pattern, but I think you should have built one more warrior to fogbust the SW (a barb Archer spawning there could be a source of annoyance).

    Very straightforward and should be effective. You have room for 5 good cities, which means no production issues in the future.

    I simply wanted the FP (for food), the stone (for Mids) and both elephants (because they're good tiles) in the first ring, not sure what you mean. If I didn't want the mids, then settling on the Western ivory would obviously have been superior.


    Another thing: be careful with health issues. Your second city, as placed right now, has 10FPs = -4 health (-2 if you factor in fresh water). If you settle it 2N for the fish (not spoiling you anything as you've read my write-up already), it'll be the same -2 health (5FPs, no fresh water), which can easily drag you down early on.

    Also, don't forget to build enough workers, these desert tiles take a long time to improve!
     
  13. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    T128. Taking a break (probably a couple of days, gotta get my exams out of the way first).
     

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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I probably need a few days to catch up! :)
    Thanks for the feedback!

    Spoiler :

    I do like plains cows, 6yield tiles are good in most forms, only the ones with -2F such as PH-copper or such can be an annoyance.
    Biggest advantage would be that it enables the possibility to skimp AH for quite some time.
    Settling on marble I didn't even consider untill I saw your writeup. Not sure why I missed that since I was already thinking about marble wonders. :(

    FB warriors.. I would want one more, but the production is lacking. As you say there will be a big need for workerturns and now I really want to get another worker out.
    Thankfully, there is plenty of traffic from multiple AIs in the SW region, and I don't think there is any alarm.

    Health!! Now that you mention it, this is a very health deprived opening. Cows, fish and deer is the only things available, and I didn't plan to settle any deer/fish either.
    Being observant of happy-resources is kind of automatic, but being observant of health resources doesn't come natural for me.
     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, I did play until turn 67, but some mistakes you simply can't play on from... :)

    Spoiler :


    I decided that I could live without myst, and that I would get a library up and running in StPetersburg in time.
    Unfortunatly, Lincoln decided to build TGW, and when I was 3 turns away from a 2pop whip of a library (had arranged with a 29 hammer OF previously) this happens.
    Ofcouse I also decided to play it very lean, and go without garrison.
    Not a good idea!!
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

     
  16. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :

    Wow, that one sucked... It was written though, never settle in an AI capital's third ring (bad for diplo and you'll most likely lose the city).

    How is it possible that you had only 2 cities by T67 though? I had 4 cities + the Mids by then, without killing research. Why are you teching Aesthetics? That will slow you down a lot if you're going for Elephants.

    You can still replay and learn from your mistakes ;) (I agree that playing on from here would probably be a useless pain)
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yes, I will probably give it another go. To keep you company and to serve as a bad example for lurkers, if nothing else. ;)

    Have read your writeup to T70, and enjoy the read!
    Spoiler :


    I'll just answer what I did and why, not saying that it was good and not saying that I stand by my decisions. :)


    My plan was to simply settle 3 cities in total. Third on the PH with cows+ivory in second ring. I had no rush to settle these, but instead prioritized getting commerce up to speed.
    Also refrained from chopping, to save forests for the attack.
    Had granaries in both cities, library in capital and 30/90 library in StPeters.

    Other than that, the differance in size of empire is probably explained by not settling on marble, losing a turn and not having a 6yield tile early on?

    Aestetics was to trade for alfa/math/IW. Shaka & Monty almost always goes for math so I didn't want to self-tech it.
    Just when I finished AH, lincoln started teching alfabet, so I was certain to get that trade. Lincoln is flavour sci/growth, so I don't think he will go for aestethics?
    I also want to bulb machinery and/or engineering later on, and for that I need aestetics.
     
  18. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :

    Makes sense, but with only 3 cities and fairly low food you would've lacked production for the Elephant war. It's really better to get 4-5 cities when possible.
    Totally agree with that
    Why not HBR instead? Machinery bulb is a long shot, especially as you won't need it for your first war. I'd much rather bulb Philo to hop back onto the tech trading train. Also, avoiding fishing when you have two fish spots available is a bad move in most cases.


    Would sure be fun! And there's really no bad example when it comes to Civ, as every game simply displays the outcome of different decisions & random rolls.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pedro78
    Spoiler :

    I have accepted some given wisdom (probably misunderstod on my part as well) that you should stay at 3 cities for a construction war. Not given it much thought myself.
    You can whip much more from 5 cities though, so it makes sense.
    Getting a 10 unit strong army at a certain turnis in all honestly better than 6 units 2 turns earlier in almost all circumstances.

    Similar things is that in isolation you should generally stay at 6cities pre-optics. But I'm starting to believe that 7-9 cities are also perfecly ok if they are good enough.
    I'm in a rather weird spot, where I partly follow vague rule-of-thumbs that I only parcially understand, and partly just make up the game as I go along.

    Teching HBR makes much more sense, since I do need it too. I know that at least shaka goes for HBR quick though. But perhaps this is in line after MC for them? Not that it is relevant since it's lincoln or WvO that I would do the trade with.
    What is the formula for how many beakers is it that I need to put into alfa and math to trade for HBR? I find that when I do this trade I often error on the safe side and usually have to half-tech both of them. With knowledge I could run much more efficient.

    I'm not sure I like the fish spots, since they also require monuments, but as you point out, teching aestethics and planning for machinery/engineering at this stage is really premature and I should not give those considerations so much weight.
     
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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Have returned to this game now, sorry for taking so long. :)

    To T79
    Spoiler :


    I started by correcting something that you thought was a mistake @Pedro78, however I didn't listen fully. I didn't settle in place, nor on the marble, but I did settle so I reach the cows. Also not too far west to get unhealth from floodplains.
    I like having more river, and I think the unhealth is a problem as it is, so I didn't want to settle on the marble.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Right away, Lincoln is being an ass, settling in my face.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    And he doesn't stop either. Here he grabs the fish spot too!
    I went Agri->AH and then I was very torn between if I should go for myst right away to put more culture pressure on NewYork, or perhaps make a try for SH or just the failgold.
    Or should I go for BW to chop out a few settlers asap?
    In the end, I did opt to go for TW first at least, to ensure that I would have trade routes settling my second city. Thinking that the raw production from a farmed FP, the cows and perhaps a mine would get my settler out quick enough.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    After TW, I continued with BW->Myst, here I revolt while the settler is moving. I should probably have waited one more turn to get the worker out from StPetersburg, as I feel very starved of workerturns.
    I should probably have built a second worker in capital, because I haven't really had time to chop anything yet.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Haha, now it's Lincolns turn to learn not to settle in a capitals third ring. :) This feels very good considering how my first playthough went.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


    Another mistake at T61. I can open borders with Lincoln and I don't have any road connection. I had enought EP to see his research and saw him teching writing, but I didn't reflect that I needed to prepare the traderoutes.
    Not that I could really have made the road, as I'm still behind in workers. I'm building my third settler now when I should be building another worker.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG



    I did a swap with a warrior and my fogbusting scout, so that the scout could start... scouting! Noted that Lincoln has iron, and that he had build scotland yard in his capital.
    I also saw this. Not sure if I should be happy about it or not. Don't want Lincoln to get completely crushed before I am ready to go for him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG


    Two turns later, Lincoln loses Atlanta to Monty, and he decides that cities are just an annoyance anyway, and give me New York.
    Thank you Lincoln, this is just the kind of handicap I need to partake in Pedros legue! :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG






    At T76 Monty gets alfabet, and I trade my AH for his Archery.
    I'm kind of preparing to hit Lincoln with horsearchers now as he lost his only source of metal in Atlanta. And he is also diminished in cities and in units due to his war with Monty.

    T77 and T79 Shaka pesters me with demands to join his war against WvO, and then to stop trading with him. No Shaka, I can't do that, and I'm really sorry to get diplo hits against you. :(

    This is the state of my empire at T79. I have just finished a library in the capital (and one in New York a few turns ago.
    What I'll try to do now, is to trade for math and turn those forests into horse archers to at least snag Boston.
    The placement of Rostov can probably be seen as a mistake, but I wanted the grassland hill.
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG



     

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