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All leader portraits

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by nunor, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. VermelhoRed

    VermelhoRed Prince

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    You confidently stated that "France alone is not significant enough to be included in the vanilla game". Didn't read like an opinion to me.


    All of those have more going for them, other than the manteinance of a previous oppression.

    Btw, I'm sure I didn't read all your posts, but where do you address you "land area" criterion? The impression I got was that you simply thought it was implicit "more land area" meant a better leader choice, and that everyone would agree with that.
     
  2. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    What else could that be other than an opinion? Do I need to put 'In my humble opinion' in front of every opinion I offer, and 'off course that is only my opinion'? No! That would be a waste of time, and I would assume that people have minds of their own, so can see where I am giving my own point of view. Anyway, are you really telling me that you've never stated you own opinion as if it were a fact?

    Well, the phrasing of that sounded suspiciously like you were telling me that was a fact! Which is weird, because last I knew, there were people with different perspectives on Clemenceau- clearly you are part of some sort of evil plan to brainwash me!

    I never said that everyone would agree with me! Please do stop putting words in my mouth, it really is very dishonest. Anyway, more land area means more resources (in some cases resources which were not otherwise available), means better ability to project power to different places, and therefore means more power. Additional resources can also lead to greater wealth, which can make nations far more powerful, as this wealth can be invested into improving many things, for example military equipment. Also, taking over large areas of land requires good organisation and in some cases technological advantages. Successful conquests are testament to the power of nations. Having a larger empire than your neighbors also makes you more powerful relatively speaking. And anyway, if we are talking about Louis XIV, besides ruling a large empire, he also had the longest reign of any European monarch, and ruled during a French golden age. Now, some people may be happy to have less powerful leaders to represent nations, but to me it is a slight annoyance; I prefer, as I have stated before, to have leaders which can be seen as representing the most impressive achievements of their respective nations.
     
  3. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    She'd be an awful choice, because she didn't

    -Change the course of her country's history in identifiable ways
    -Affect anything singlehandedly
    -Affect the grand scheme of world history
    -Have a personality worth building a game character around

    You're drawing the wrong parallels. You've taken every single criteria that *doesn't* make Catherine worth picking and saying that those disqualify her, rather than looking at the things that *do* qualify her.

    -She "ruled" for a long period of French history, and thus had a strong effect on the future of French history. The religious strife in the country that she allowed to get worse forced Henry to pass the Edict de Nantes (which was also in line with her intended policy). The religious in-fighting did a lot to keep France held back while Spain reached its golden age, and the future reduction of it brought France to the forefront of European politics once again (European history is basically a series of attempts to control France)
    -France may not have been a world player during her rule itself, but she set it up for Henry IV to turn it into one. Again, I would prefer choosing Henry himself for this part, but his alliance with the Ottomans against the Hapsburgs and the resulting state secularism of both their reigns (which led to France happily fighting on the Protestant side of the 30 years war for political reasons) are critical turning points in French, European, and thus World history.
    -She led France well through a time of great crisis and instability. The internal wars of religion were tearing France apart, and while she didn't manage to personally make peace, she did manage to hold the monarchy together (better than Cleopatra :p) and set up the realm to accept Henry's Edict de Nantes. It is an impressive feat that France neither got taken over nor dissolved into several squabbling states during her time *behind* the throne.
    -Her drastic change in policy from "please just make peace, idc about your religious differences" to "fine, kill them all, I can't trust those stupid crazies to be reasonable anymore" is INTERESTING and allows for Firaxis to make an interesting caricature and an interesting gameplay niche.

    Is she the absolute best leader for France? Hell no. Is she a good option for gameplay, while being new to the series, while also being a good *enough* leader to represent France? I think so. I still would prefer Henry IV over her, but I'm waiting to see their implementation of her before I decide I'm disappointed.
     
  4. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    You are probably right that there are worse leader choices that have been made already; I think that Cleopatra is not the best choice eithe, and Gandhi is, to me, probably hands down the worst leader choice in Civ games. It is made worse by the fact that he is in every one.
     
  5. Sonmi

    Sonmi Chieftain

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    u wot m8? them's fightin words

    France is more significant than pretty much every European nation in the game bar Rome, and maybe England and Greece.

    Russia, Germany, Spain, and ESPECIALLY Poland are all pacotille in comparison to France at the height of its power.
     
  6. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    I mean, they aren't worse objectively.

    When arguing that Gorguryeo might end up in, you stated that the designers have different criteria from someone in the audience. This is true, since they have done things like HRE and Native American blobs in the past. However, those were also different designers.

    Well Civ6 has different designers, and their criteria cares more about personality than yours do, and less about being the "best" representative of their civ than you do.

    I wish Gandhi would swap out for variety sake, but I think he makes a fine leader. He has a strong, distinctive personality among world leaders. He certainly isn't the best representative of India as a civilization, but I dont mind because he is an interesting character on his own.

    Now, if they put anyone other than Genghis/Kublai as leader of the Mongols, that's a problem. Not only was the Mongolian civilization synonymous with Genghis' empire (and consequently, Kublai's), but Genghis also has a strong personality. Not having him is like not having Attila for the Huns. Atilla IS the Huns.
     
  7. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Not thrilled with France's leader but hopefully with multiple leaders it will be a moot point. :)
    France is definitely Civ worthy. People are entitled to their opinions of course but the accomplishments of France down through the years has been extremely impressive.
     
  8. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    There are a number of famous Mongol women who could lead the Mongols. It isn't the case of Genghis/Kublai or nothing. I do hope there will be multiple leaders and we'll see Mandukhai the Wise or Khutulun. They definitely had big personalities. :D


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukhai_Khatun
    http://www.rejectedprincesses.com/princesses/khutulun
     
  9. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    I suppose she would be an interesting choice. She doesn't seem much further from "obvious rep" than Kublai, so I think it might work.

    But still, my point is that the Mongol civilization is only such a staple because of Genghis' ridiculously huge empire. The whole civilization basically IS his empire. Since he is already a huge personality, I would be surprised if they went with anyone else.
     
  10. SMcM

    SMcM Emperor

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    You misunderstand! France is historically significant because its large empires under leaders like Napoleon and Louis XIV. But, had France never had an empire, as it did not under Catherine De Medicis, would it be anywhere near as historically important?
     
  11. Cerilis

    Cerilis Not Warlord

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    Maybe you want to make an extra thread for discussing France's leader choice?
     
  12. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Sure, and bringing up Louis XIV kind of shows that there is more than "large empires". His wasn't that much bigger than under Catherine after all. It is the luxuries, the centralisation, the culture and so on that make Louis XIV such a big figure. Not the first "iron curtain" though Vauban and his architecture would be another point in the direction "it's not about the size".

    Achievements from her era can start with the unique brand of secularization. Laicism after all starts with the religious wars of her time and is one reason why France now has a bigger problem with terrorism than say Germany. The strict division of state and religion negates any place for religion in the state and while that is a good thing to a degree, it also alienates a lot of f.e. algerian immigrants in that they see the French Republic as a thing for the White French. Getting way too political here and don't get me wrong, Catherine didn't invent that, but the topic of the relation between (which) church and state clearyl has roots in her era.

    But this is really mood, since the developers probably just wanted a female leader and needed another one with a religious agenda and kind a thought the idea cool - and bingo here we are. When you create a own game, then you can chose yourself :)
     
  13. Gangrin

    Gangrin Warlord

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    So... you claim that only significance nation can have is from it's size alone. Daym, Prussia is unimportant. Or Sweden. Or Netherlands. Or Venice/Genoa. Or Florence. Culture, science, actual use of a land you own? Nah, who cares. ONLY SIZE OF A NAME ON A GLOBE.
     
  14. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Yes, it would. Ignoring Napoleon (whose empire didn't last very long) and their colonial holdings, France still changed the course of European history. Much of the European conflicts were between France and the Hapsburgs, and most of the rest were between the Catholics/Protestants and Christians/Muslims (mainly the Ottomans). France intertwined the two shortly after Catherine with the 30 years war, and that intertwining came about as a result of Catherine's brand of state secularism which was renewed by her successor.

    This doesn't even talk about French culture or philosophy.

    Really, I think the way you look at French history and impact on world history implies you need to look up more French history.
     
  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Nah, Khutulun was never Khan. So she's quite far off from being a proper rep vs. Kublai, even if Kublai was never completely legitimated as a Khan due to the Civil War and the conflicting qurultais.
     
  16. dnoisette

    dnoisette Warlord

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    The significance and power of a nation is not solely based on the amount of territory it controls but also on its industrial/technological/cultural/economical/militaristic production.
    La Belle Époque is a famous golden age period for my country and ironically enough, it started when the Second French Empire ended...

    In short: yes, France was relevant even when not at its peak of territorial conquests.
     
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    If France doesn't deserve to be in the game, I have to seriously question who does. I mean if France doesn't, surely Spain and Germany don't, nor Russia, probably not Greece, definitely no Brazil, Inca, or Aztec...I mean, if France is unworthy, I'm pretty certain no one but Rome and China will be left by that criteria. :/

    The huge cultural impact of France on all of Europe (and beyond)--completely disregarding any impact of her colonial or imperial ambitions--is more than enough to justify her inclusion. Add to that her various imperial possessions, Medieval political potency, and religious contributions, and I really don't see how France could ever be considered unworthy of inclusion in the base game.
     
  18. gfeier

    gfeier King

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    Lots of folks talking about multiple leaders. Any evidence it's actually in the works?
     
  19. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    No solid evidence, but really makes us think given that leaders have their own seperate abilities to the nation's.
     
  20. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    This is the strongest evidence. I guess you could also argue that the more simplified leader screen style this time around means that it would (possibly) be less resource-intensive to create additional leaders for Civs, which could mean more Civs, more leaders or both.
     

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