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Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by nunor, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Ah...no. :rolleyes:

    allah is not a name for the Abrahamic God.

    allah is something altogether different.

    If you bother to read the Old Testament, you'll see stark and irreconcilable differences between allah and the God of Abraham.

    The Babylonians worshipped many gods but none of these were the God of Abraham, either. It's easy to make up a Babylonian religion in game, anyway.

    Considering that this could take the thread way off topic, that's the last I'll say about this.
     
  2. retrocity5

    retrocity5 Prince

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    Yeah (no offense) they aren't really that important but, Norway did colonize them and were the first Europeans in the Americas.
     
  3. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Personally, I'd like to see Gilgamesh go for the "Bull" symbol and call it "Anuism." I'd like to see the same, mutatis mutandis, for other civs whose historical religion isn't represented...
     
  4. retrocity5

    retrocity5 Prince

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  5. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I'm not going to be too upset about any omissions, but I was surprised most by Persia. In my mind, in a stripped down Civ game they'd be one of the first four in (Persia, China, Rome, India).
     
  6. Westfjordian

    Westfjordian Chieftain

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    I should've been more clear distinction between the geopolitical definition of Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, AND Aland Islands) on one hand, and the geological one (ie the peninsula thing) on the other.

    And yes I know Iceland was a tax territory under Norway for a time, but we retained our own laws and had the right to veto Norwegian laws if we didn't like them. We were not as free under Danish rule but that change was gradual until the one Danish King claimed absolute rule.

    To be honest, I've very rarely heard Iceland included in Scandinavia and never once by a fellow Icelander. Norse -yes, Nordic -yes (includes Scandinavia, Finland, Iceland, Greenland, Fareo island, Shetland Islands, and Orkney)

    ____________

    Now I can't help but wonder what language they are going to have Harald speak; modern Norwegian, modern Icelandic, or reconstructed old Norse/old Norwegian

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
     
  7. retrocity5

    retrocity5 Prince

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    The normal definition is Norway (plus the islands), Denmark (and Farore), and Sweden. Sometimes Iceland and Finland are used in as an extension.
     
  8. Brianstorm

    Brianstorm Warlord

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    Not sure how you got this, of course the Muslims have the Koran which is different, but Abraham, Moses and Christ himself are all considered prophets by Islam.

    The Babylonian thing is a stretch but many people link Enki/Ea to YHWH.

    edit: The Old Testament God and New Testament God are pretty different as well, as you would expect if you were God and decided to stretch your legs as a mortal.
     
  9. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Oh, and Egypt. I guess there's five.

    (what a dummy you are SammyKhalifa.)
     
  10. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    To me it isn't that there are specific civilizations missing. It's more that I feel like there's been a lot of thought put into European civilizations but the others have been fillers. I could do with more inspiring choices for China and India leaders. I feel like ok we need to have Gandhi and India and bang that's that region covered.

    Whereas they've gone to a lot of trouble to get more interesting leaders and civilizations for Europe.

    Technically Brazil also feels like a geographical coverage choice whereas a braver and more interesting one would've been Incans.
     
  11. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs Emperor

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    And perhaps Greece
     
  12. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Europe stamped a great footprint over the world history with colonialism. The European and colonial countries were lead by white male leaders. Due to early development of Writing and a lot of archaeological studies, European history is much more researched and popular than history outside Europe. Hungary, which was never in Civilization game had more historical research than Zulu and Kongo combined.

    Still it's a matter of balance. These are the things we're trying to move from in the modern world. So the Civilization has more non-european civilizations, more non-white leaders, more female leaders than you could get by measuring raw historical importance (like number of scientific publications). You just can't expect the distribution to be even.
     
  13. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    Yeah, those six, definitely. I even think there's already board game with just that set.
     
  14. OnceAKing

    OnceAKing Warlord

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    That's exactly the definition of eurocentrism. Historical importance according to whom?

    I get that early versions of Civ were eurocentric as well but jeez it had a civ just called "the Vikings" for god's sake.

    As civ has evolved and grown into a mainstream dependable sales game, you'd hope they'd take more risk and be more original with some choices. Instead of possibly splitting Greece in half they could have split India, they could have split China, instead of giving us a colonized Kongo they could have just given us Mali again, instead of giving us euro-obsessed Cleopatra they could have given us a different pharoah.

    And it's just disappointing to classify whole continents of people as "less" important based on studies. In the grand scope of the world "Sparta" isn't more or less important than a Mississippian tribe in North America. Even for all the Viking's accomplishments, such as colonizing the new World, it isn't more or less important then the Persians,

    We all know the Vikings are in because of the fascinating stories of their war lust and exploits that come from generations of stories handed down to us from the perspective of British and Western European writers. It's not about their pivotal role in world history it's about the interesting drama they stir in your imagination.

    Likewise for Sparta, while the Greek culture as a whole has been a highly pivotal instrument in world affairs the role of Sparta is really studied as a foil for the largely Athenian and Macedonian Greece we know and love. Their culture and way of life is fascinating and them "standing up to the big and scary godless persians" is written about for millenia. But in the scope of World history the Spartans don't hold an outsized role.

    Conversely China has only in modern times been held by one overarching Government and culture. Same for India. Yet their role and "importance" should call for no less than 3 Chinese states and at least 2 Indian states. The Middle East is almost the definition of civilization yet it contains at most 3 civs currently. There role and "importance" to world history would probably encompass at least half the roster with various distinct states.

    I say all that to say we arbitrarily choose what's should be deemed important in World history. We'll spend whole books and classes studying various Roman generals and there tactics in marginal campaigns to expand the empire, we'll study the ups and downs of city state relations in Greece and study the details of Homer's stories. We'll give great deference exclusively to great individuals who stood DIRECTLY against the great western empires like Shaka or Ghandi but won't bother to dig deeper and research their ancestors with the same level of detail.
     
  15. evanaurora

    evanaurora Warlord

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    I am incredibly, INCREDIBLY put off by this new leak- I don't know how else to say it.

    I am so excited for almost everything about civ 6. It looks like it is tailor made to all the things i love about the game playstyle wise. I love tying gameplay to the map, the deeper immersion. I love the art! the music!

    but honestly Norway is the final frigging straw. Two Greeces/Spains. Poland. NOT A SINGLE MAJOR SE ASIAN CIV. NOT A SINGLE MAJOR NORTH AMERICAN NATIVE CIV. o n e mesoamerican civ. one African civ led by an African leader, one led by a mostly-Greek person. THREE Central Asian/Middle Eastern civs when that area of the world pretty much has ten billion iterations of the definition of civilization as we tend to understand it. and NORWAY.

    do i think the vikings were 'not significant?' of course not. they are the ideal late-stage DLC civ. but in the base game- with multiple Spains and Greeces, apparently- with Poland-

    it's so upsetting. this is not what I love about civ. I started playing my dad's old copy of Civ 2 when I was eleven and have played ever since, and they have made DEFINITE upsetting choices, but I've always thought/assumed they were making a concerted effort to get BETTER.

    more random european civs is so adamantly not an interesting design choice i don't know what to say. like. there is no justifying this to me.

    suddenly, I'm questioning whether this is a game worth my money.

    i don't play civ for Perfect Noneuropean Representation- I wouldn't have survived the franchise. from white dude Ramesses in V to the 'native american' civ in IV and on and on- the series has made bad choices over and over. but leaving out an entire continent, barely representing another (and only in a colonized form................................), ignoring the enormous impact of an enormously culturally diverse and populous region in SE Asia---------- all while having tons of fun playing around with lily white Western cultures------------ it's particularly blatant how apathetic they were towards the bare friggin' minimum. It's absurd.
     
  16. evanaurora

    evanaurora Warlord

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    this whole reply is so good, but I want to tack on the obvious- that 'scientific publications'- an artificial measure CREATED by western civilizations- is /not/ an actual measure of technological or cultural prowess. 'colonialism exists' is an obvious statement- but making the effort to look beyond that legacy to find a diverse range of ways to be a culture and finding a way to recreate that diversity in gameplay is what makes the game interesting. it's RIDICULOUS that the devs outright stated that they wanted the leaders and their differences to be on full display and immediately set out to pick mostly white and Western people. by their own measure of success, they fell flat.
     
  17. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    Ok, let's put this directly - the only really important is the game sales. So, civs and leaders need to fall into one of the following categories:
    - Their modern representation need to have large market of strategy players.
    - Are well known in mass culture or history, so they are interesting to people.
    That's it. And yes, here comes eurocentrism as continuation of colonialism. European and former colonial countries are wealthy, they have a lot of players and they produce a lot of mass culture products about their history.

    Still, Civilization does a significant amount of work for having more distributed civ representation. Civs like Kongo are not really source of sales themsepves, they are here for geographical coverage.

    P.S. It's funny people who complain about eurocentrism don't complain about not enough female leaders. Doesn't look consistent to me.

    P.P.S. Me, personal, I'm totally for Persia, Mongols, Korea, Inca and Maya in the game. Plus Portugal and Netherlands. I don't care whether civ is european or not, it's historical importance what means a lot for me.
     
  18. evanaurora

    evanaurora Warlord

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    spain wasn't in vanilla 5. they were a DLC- added with the Incas in a scenario, then later with Gods and Kings. this time 'round, not only are they included in vanilla, but the Vikings as well (another V DLC). Poland wasn't added until the final expansion pack, but now apparently they're one of the first priority DLCs (when.... there are NO NATIVE AMERICANS?????????????????????????????????? not even planned/?????????????????) vanilla 5 had the Iroquois and Siam- two regions that are entirely ignored by 6. vanilla 5 had Egypt led by an actual Egyptian ruler (though admittedly whitewashed) and an African civ that was relatively separate from European colonialism in Songhai.

    vanilla 5 was nowhere NEAR perfect. not in this respect, and certainly not gameplay wise. but they made the bare spasm of effort that one would hope they would. REGRESSING in a new iteration is kind of unthinkable, but here we are.

    having diversity be a checklist is definitely gross, but it's way grosser to ignore most of world history in favor of the apparently impenetrable "BUT IT'S A BETTER GAME, SOMEHOW" logic.
     
  19. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    ...due to their scientific dominance. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
     
  20. m15a

    m15a Emperor

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    FWIW, although this leader image leak has Poland and two leaders for Spain, the new list of leaders from today's livestream does not (only 1 for Spain and no Poland), and there's a good chance that reflects the base game (including pre-order bonuses). Nothing is 100% certain until it's announced, though.
     

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