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All Leaders Challenge Game 19: Sumer/Gilgamesh

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sisiutil, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. slaze

    slaze Deity

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    no doubt

    Ahhh....

    Unit numbers, unit shmumbers. Hows a war usually go? You kill five times as many units as you lose? or more? In ten turns I think he can put together a concentrated enough stack to make some sort of advance. I at least think he should attack San francisco relatively soon and put the war there, and then start the "protective" defense.
     
  2. PanzerEric

    PanzerEric Chieftain

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    I hope I am not sensing an air of pessimism on the board regarding the posting of Round 6 :( . Although things are looking a bit bleak atm, I think we are still in a good position to win this game :) . But as sisiutil said this next round will be make-or-break.

    I advocated earlier for this most recent round to be heavy on war, light on peace. Without a doubt Round 7 will need to be all about taking out Washington or else I'm not sure how we win.


    Is it futurehermit who has "land is power" as his moto? Well that is going to be how we win the game :). The potential for a 30 city empire on the continent is very real and when compared to the other civs size Sumer will be the dominate civ by far. With a 30 civ empire it is easily concievable to have over 100 - 150 towns late game allowing you to blow through tech research.

    City Countdown

    Hannibal - 12 cities

    Shaka - 13 cities

    Sitting Bull - 1 city

    Cyrus - 9 cities

    Washington - 14 cities

    Giggly Current - 8 cities

    Giggly (after GW is conquered) - 30 cities

    As others are saying this next round must be about conquering Washington.
     
  3. sylvanllewelyn

    sylvanllewelyn Perma-newb

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    That screenshot showing civics, Hannibal's running bureaucracy, not free speech. Both bureaucracy and free speech pictures have microphones. I'm not saying we should or should not go for liberalism, I'm just saying he's not running free speech right now.

    Advice? Whether you're going for liberalism or not, go for nationalism, either as research or as free tech. Astronomy means you get 2-3 more hapiness resoureces, but you'll get the same if you draft an army to take Washington's lands. I'd advise against going to war, as your situation is so hopeless, and rather just try to win by culture or diplomacy. If you're shooting for space race, you need more land, so you're forced to whip AND draft maceman and catapults against Washington.
     
  4. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    I can't believe I still get that mixed up. Maybe I should join KMad and regard myself as a "permanoob". :blush:

    HOPELESS?!?! Them's fightin' words, bucko. ;) Frankly, I really think the rule of thumb for Civ IV is, if you find yourself in a hole... fight your way out. :ar15:

    PanzerEric has the right idea. I have many, many turns to beat up on Washington before the other civs can show up and do anything except peek at the festivities from their caravels. By the end of it, I should have a continent-wide empire, a large veteran military, and overseas trade routes. Trust me on this: all I have to do is conquer the continent, and I'll be sitting pretty. :smug:

    Either that, or I'll die trying. :(
     
  5. Capellan

    Capellan Is this thing on?

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    Isn't that a silk resource near Los Angeles in one of the screenshots? If so, make LA a primary target for conquest. If not, find out where the most readily available silk resource is and make the nearest American city to that a target.
     
  6. MrFelony

    MrFelony Prince

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    Space race anyone?
     
  7. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    Choices seem to be:

    1. Go after Liberalism and skipping all other techs. This leaves us to fight Washington now with cats/maces/spies for the most part which can be done but will be long and drawn out (for each part)
    2. Go after one side-tech to help increase our military and then take our chances with Liberalism. Nice if we can get Engineering for the trebs, but still points to a slogging war in my mind.
    3. Go all out for military techs and pass on the Liberalism race. Here is where Guilds would be handy along with the engineering. Still would have to fight an early war I would think with what we have now, but the second war would go quicker with knights.

    May be oversimplified, and there are several mitigating factors including (but not limited to):

    1. To trade or not to trade. As I mentioned in the last tech update, Sis wrote that Cyrus will give us CS (shave 4 turns) and cash for (what I assume to be) Compas. After this, Optics + COL to Cyrus could net us something interesting (Feud - don't know about engineering). Obviously, this has consequences diplomatically - as would any trade with anyone.
    2. Great Person. I'd like to know how far we are to the next one and what the probabilities might be. A Scientist might give us a boost on the Liberalism path while others might give us some interesting trade bait with a lightbulb.
    3. Washington. If he moves the slider and gets to Feud quickly, we could steal that I would think. If he doesn't, it means he'll be putting more cash into the coffers that we could inherit by taking some of his cities quickly (and further hamstringing him). I'd like to get some coastal cities taken/up to make more use of the Colossus in any case.

    Quite honestly, I'd still make a run at Liberalism despite my idea of getting to knights I mention in a previous post. Along the way, I think with trades and stealing we can get Feudalism and others without hitting them ourselves. I think most of us have experienced that the AI is not so quick to wander down the Liberalism path, and even when they do they do seem to WANDER. Why go after techs that most of the AI's already have (or will have soon). If nothing else, Education and/or Liberalism (even paper perhaps) will be nice trade bait for whomever we deem to be our trade partner(s).

    The only way we can really help our city-taking ability in the short term is with engineering and trebs (I don't count Feud despite our protective nature - they just won't help so much in TAKING cities) - and that won't speed up our war so much.

    I say start a war quickly with Wash with cats/maces/vultures while teching along the Liberalism line and picking up others via trade/stealing. We won't be able to finish Wash in one war anyway, so after the first round we can better asses our chances at Lib. I'd try to run scientists and hope for a GS for bulbing as well...
     
  8. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    I agree, snagging a silk resource would be a high priority early in the war for the +2 :) (from the resource and a market).

    Along those lines--Washington has a lot of cities. Which ones to keep, which ones to raze (if any)?
     
  9. Validator

    Validator Prince

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    I don't doubt that you can win a war with Washington. My concern is that it's going to be a long struggle, during which WW will mount and the culture slider will have to be used to keep your cities from going into mass unrest. This will reduce the research rate, which makes me wonder what the tech situation will look like when the war is over. You could end up with a pyrrhic victory.

    There's no silk near LA. You'll either need to capture Atlanta or Chicago, neither of which is very close to the border. Acquiring the source of whale near Zapotec will provide the same benefit and be a lot easier. Of course ideally you'll want both silk and whale, and might as well throw in some fur while you're at it. :)

    I would definitely raze Zapotec, Miami and St. Louis. Keep Los Angeles, New York, Washington, Philadelphia and Atlanta. I think the rest of the American cities are less than ideally placed, however the decision as to whether they should be razed or not will probably come down to their size at the time of capture and your financial situation at the time.
     
  10. RockTheCazbah87

    RockTheCazbah87 Pacal's pal

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    If you're looking for cities to keep, then get your spies to check for wonders / nice things. :)
     
  11. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    where'd you get that from? i thought holy wars were just an option vs. any voting member or non-member at war with a full member. the only exemption is if you're a full member. i've never heard of an exemption for NSR or FR :confused:. as far as i know you can even call for holy wars "against the infidels" while you're in free religion yourself. sounds crazy but i think it's true, since if you control the AP city you're automatically a full member regardless of your religious status.

    but of course i'm a permanoob and always want to learn when i'm wrong.

    what Validator says is true of course, and would work if they do have to be in a religion. the Shwedgaon Paya giving early FR can be quite a diplomatic pain in the candybutt. it opens you up to demands to use favorite civics earlier in some cases, grrrrrrrrrrrrr!

    what nonsense are you talking about? KMad doesn't regard you as a "permanoob" :crazyeye:

    it comes in handy. it's a great excuse. :mischief: and it's totally true in my case--you, not so much *giggle*.

    about razing cities: raze Zapotec or i will cry. it misses the whales *pout*. the crabs too, but the whales are the only ones we've seen.

    ps you're not as miserly as me. in that HBR screenshot you only waited for the 20% stationary discount, wowsa! even if i have tons of points i'm cheap as hell, go figure. only thing i splurge on is if they change religions/civics that i need back the other way for diplo purposes, oopsies.
     
  12. Melon Head

    Melon Head Warlord

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    I think you need to keep two things in mind. First of all, you already know that you need to kill Washington. Stop screwing around and just do it. Massive military buildup, followed by a defensive war and more buildup, then an offensive war.

    Second, abandon Liberalism. Yes, I know it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can't bear to think of a game without it, but seriously. You don't need it. Yeah, FR would be nice diplo-wise, but the free tech? Whoop-de-do! It's one free tech. Nice but not essential. Instead, put that time/effort/$ into beating the crap out of Washington ASAP. That means CS, followed by engineering. Drama, perhaps music. All of these are good for war, which you need to be focusing on. After you have conquered the continent, resume researching, pick up edu/lib/astro as you can. Either you'll get them before the other continent does, or their research will have given you a discount on the lib. path techs.

    Another benefit of this path is that it's way different from how you almost always do things. You need to adapt! The key strength of the lib beeline is the ability to trade techs for other techs. In this game, that was a silly idea. Why, oh why did you bulb a scientist for Philo? You didn't need it right then as you couldn't trade it and didn't have enough neighbors to trade lib to eventually. Instead you should have settled/acadamied him and reaped the rewards until you met everyone else. Really. You bypassed GL this game because you didn't need it. Break out of the mold and bypass lib as well. See how it goes.

    I think your grander strategy needs to be consolidating your continent, grabbing emancipation/free speech, cottaging up the central jungle cities and focusing on food/trade with the intercontinental trade boosters in your coastal cities. Rep/FS/Eman/FM/FR is beautiful for this, as it lets you run some specialists in food-based coastal cities when you reach health/happy caps, cottage up the continental interior, gets you lots of international trade with overseas civs, and avoids the diplomatic mess over there. Just grab a monastery or two for Taoism and you'll be alright.
     
  13. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    well, i really don't think he had any at all before HBR. he didn't have a pasture on his horses at the end of the last round :crazyeye:. we couldn't see the tile in the fog but we could see his city screens, he never got around to hooking it up for some reason. i guess he was waiting for the stables...

    washington a complete weirdo. he is the hardest leader i know to bribe into his favorite civic, and the most likely to switch out of it 5 turns later. dork.

    and fits in with the ALC idea of showcasing leader traits. we're creative, theatres and colosseums are cheap for us. and we have dye! tripleplusgood.
     
  14. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    about teching to drama
    totally agreed!
    you don't need better troops against wash (You don't need trebuchets, catapults deal colateral damage better /cheaper), you need more troops, and for this to happen, you need to keep up in production in the long war you're bound to face, which means you have 2 tools:
    - kill all american troops in your land (or at least most of them)
    - cultural slider
    Using both would totally showcase your combo of traits : protective to kill enemy troops for cheap, without WW + creative for cheap happy buildings :goodjob: to keep up when you're actually taking cities.
     
  15. Andvare

    Andvare King

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    Wouldn't the answer to that problem be a two part war?

    The destruction of Washington don't have to be instantaneously.


    Emperor is a bit harder, huh?
     
  16. Maydrock

    Maydrock Prince

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    Go into a defensive war with Washington, put him on strike and take his cities at will. Research drama.
     
  17. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    My plan would be:

    Finish civil service..get maces asap
    Get Engineering from Cyrus, built 2-3 pikes for defence. If you can also get Feudalism from somewhere do it...the negative modifiers will not matter for a long time and you need to conquer washington now!

    Declare on Washington as soon as you have enough troops to take 3 cities at once.

    Take Zapotec, Los angeles & San Frangisco at once. If you can afford take st Louis & that size one city east of your capital.

    use spies to take down defences

    this should not take more than 10 turns....it can be done in 5 turns. Then stop the war get something in return and go to Liberialism...finish him after liberialism...if all that goes well you are on your way to winning.
     
  18. paranatural

    paranatural Chieftain

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    Everyone seems to agree that War with Washington is paramount. I agree.

    However, more bold steps must be taken as well.

    Already we have seen the benefits of powerful spies against Washington. You've managed to steal many techs, and that is a good thing. Now you need his land. It is the others techs that you need.

    Right now you need to orchestrate future wars as well. See who will side with Washington, and pick the other side. At this point, and I know it is a bold move, I like the idea of throwing pretty much all of your esp points against a single, technologically powerful civ. Get a pack of spies over there ASAP, start building those Esp points, and steal what you need.

    I am well aware that distance and being on other continents will make this Esp point heavy. But the sad fact is that while you are at war with Washington you will need to devote pretty much everything to the war. All available resources. That means you simply have no hope of keeping up in tech. You'll have nothing to trade with, so you will have to stay competitive somehow. Yes, yes, after you take washington down you will be able to do the research for yourself, but that day is long distant. If you do not have another way of acquiring tech you will be hopelessly far behind by time that day comes.

    You have to take all of Washington's land. But you cannot afford to fall behind in the tech department, and you econ is middling at best. Is it a dangerous thing to throw all your ep's against one person? Yes. But really the worst that they can do to you with their ep's is be nuisances. With basically no way to come conquer you, and considering the sheer time and effort required to ship spies to you, I suspect their spies would not have more than a minimal impact. A pasture or mine here or there destroyed, maybe a city revolt for a turn on occasion. And that is if they choose to target you heavily at all. Right now you are a backwoods bumpkin a sea away. It'll take time before they hate you that much.

    Now, on to the war itself. I know you are quite adept at wars but this one you will be running on quite the military budget. I think it would be prudent to pick which cities you are going to raze and send two separate stacks to take those first. Razing them will hurt his production, and pour gold into your coffers, which you will desperately need. A few archers behind to move in and defend newly acquired cities that you keep will keep your army moving.

    Off the top of my head I am thinking raze 4, keep two, sue for peace. Unless, of course, you do that easily and still have a few more rounds before WW gets to you too bad and your army is still moving strong. But with more production and cities than you, I suspect you will be doing well if you can take those 6 in your inital assault.

    What exactly to do in the meantime will be tricky. I'd build at least 4 spies and send them to the victim of your choice. all else, military after your current builds. Get the whip out.

    And good luck.
     
  19. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    If he manages to conquer the whole continent without long term cripling to teching, there will be no future wars. Space race is more or less guarandeed. All is needed after that is have enuogh units at coastal cities, keep ahead in tech...and you are fine. No one will invade with some good diplomacy..and if they do they will be easily countered if ahead in tech.
     
  20. ratrangerm

    ratrangerm Prince

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    I favor going for Drama. Not just to open the culture slider, but cheap Theatres, combined with the Dye (as has already been pointed out) mean you'll have something to really help combat WW, and that you shouldn't have to push the culture slider up too much.

    Crossbowmen in as many cities as possible will be important... the Protective trait combined with the defense against Melee units will help greatly if you start with a defensive war. Then you can build up your Macemen and Cats and take the fight to Washington when you are ready to do so.

    I'd probably not worry too much about the Liberalism race. You need Drama and you need Engineering, so I'd prioritize those two. Then head directly to Astronomy. If you try to win the Lib race, you miss out on techs you need more and risk losing the race to Hannibal.
     

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