[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 34: Celtia / Brennus.

[sylvanllewelyn]

All Leaders Challenge Game 34: Celtia / Brennus.

ALC 1-32 is here.

ALC 33 is here. Feature(s): espionage and corporations.

Round 1: settling and early turns (4000 BC - - 3400BC)
Round 2: tool-age hunter-gatherers (3400BC - 600AD)
Round 3: first contact (600AD - 740AD)
Round 4: trade carefully (740AD - 1050AD)
Round 5: Conquest of China (1050AD - 1520AD)
Round 6a: The Liberation of Mongolia (1520AD - 1645AD)
Round 6b: The Conquest of Mongolia (1645AD - 1705AD)
Epilogue: evaluating different isolation starts (1818 AD surrender)

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that games are going to be played with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, an attempt will be made to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the starting saved game file, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses.


I can also post the worldbuilder file if someone can teach me how to.


Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.


In this ALC game I’ll be playing as Brennus of Celtia. In ascending alphabetical order, this is the first civilisation that has not been completed in the ALC series from 1 to 33. Boudicca of Celtia has been attempted before but remains unfinished so it does not count.


My thoughts on this leader? I like spiritual better than aggressive because I am a totally biased fanboy of spiritual. The UU I still think is underrated. The UB… ?


The game settings are: Deity, Fractal, Cylindrical, Standard, Temperate, Medium Sea Level, Ancient Starting Era, Normal Game Speed, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events.

Spoiler :

The start. Plains cow again. Year of the Ox. Brilliant.

Spoiler :

Look at the edges of the screenshot carefully. It contains a lot of information. I am tempted to settle on top of the ivory for some nice riverside grassland cottages. However, I think, South of the riverside plains hill is actually the coast. Settling on the ivory will be classic one tile off the coast.

Is it possible for food resources in starting location to spawn next to each other? If not, then I might not even bother exploring the tile 1E of the plains cow.

 

[Jarno]

If not, then I might not even bother exploring the tile 1E of the plains cow.

Beware, there could also be food 2E1S of the settler! Settling 1S would keep this tile, but there is a slight risk of orphaning seafood further south.

 

[Major Tom]

How short can rivers be? Anyway send scout to any PH for an answer, preferably 1s of settler. Also like setting on Jumbo.

 

[soundjata]

How do you like your civ games ?

Spoiler :

Plains cow start

 

[krikav]

Looks like coast SW of the elephants? I would pray for some seafood. Powering the early game with just a plains cow is such a pain.
Would gladly spend 1-2 turns to see if some more favourable capital could be located.

 

[krikav]

Would prefer settling on a PH rather than on the elephant, celts start with hunting and that tile would give a early worker more productive stuff to do.

The UB, the Dun is rather mediocre no matter how you look at it.
I tend to build a pair of them to ensure stack defenders have the guerilla promotion. Notable muskets when you go for early cannons without rifles/grenadiers in iso games.

But with stone, they are so cheap so you can more or less build them everywhere. They add 3000 soldiers instead of the normal 2000 for walls, so they are en par with barracks which also gives 3000 soldiers. So somewhat cheap way to bump up power rating...?

 

[konata_LS]

Wow, glad to see a new ALC

SPI is a nice trait. CHA is quite versatile: the early extra 2- never hurt during peace time; units only need 8 exp to unlock HE, which is a tempting discount when preparing for wars. Brennus' UUs and UBs are not game-changing like Quechuas but they can be fun under some circumstances. But I really don't like Celtic starting tech. I would play more often as Brennus if the Celts started with Agri/Hunt instead of Hunt/Myst.

Agree with sending the scout to a PH to check if there are other food resources nearby. 2E of the scout looks like a Flood Plain. 1N of the Wine seems to be Tundra. So scouting towards the south makes sense.

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS
Siege reaching CR1+CR2 at only 4xp is huge too. Helps a ton if you attack without using vass/theo, as you usually do in construction based attacks.
You can always roll the map until you get piggies with the celts, problem solved!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Round 1: settling and early turns (4000 BC - - 3400BC)

Scout and settler movement:

Spoiler :

No seafood discovered. Other than that, beyond the peaks, are oceans. I didn't move my scout there yet because, even if there is seafood there, that spot would be good for a city but not the capital. A warrior can check it out. Instead I want to settle along the riverside grassland for cottages. One single plains sheep is pathetic but I don't see anything a whole lot better.

Spoiler :

Thirteen turns to animal husbandry. Buddhism landed 12 turns, in 3480BC. Hinduism not founded yet in 3400BC. So, IF I settled in place, and IF I went for it, then I could have founded one of the early religions. At least there aren't any highly-religious or highly-financial leaders in the game.

[Disclaimer: founding an early religion is generally not considered a good strategy on deity.]

Spoiler :

The situation is a bit unusual. I have not met anyone yet. There are no cereal crops in sight. There are no precious metals (gold silver gems) in sight.

Am I seeing things?

 

[Snowbird]

hmmm... settling by ignoring 6 yield cows... why? for some future cottages? 2E would be 2 specials and about thesame amount of riverside...

Deeply puzzling.

 

[krikav]

@Snowbird I would have moved exacly as @sylvanllewelyn moved, although on T1 I would likely have moved back and settled on the ivory.

Regarding the 3400BC situation:
Might be isolation, looks like an above average island to be isolated on, and CHA helps alot too.
Standard recipie is to settle 3 cities in rich spots, preferably with river tiles that can be cottaged, libraries in at least two of them, get them ready to run scientists at T90 at the latest if you want an academy, T110 if you don't and only run in two.
Then settle 2-3 more cities after pottery writing.

Monarchy could be good since there is wine, but CHA+ivory might be enough happines too.

Usually worth it to really spam warriors in the beginning to secure the island so that archery can be skipped.

 

[soundjata]

hmmm... settling by ignoring 6 yield cows... why? for some future cottages? 2E would be 2 specials and about thesame amount of riverside...

Deeply puzzling.

On the other hand settling the capitol a little bit more towards the center certainly has advantages (easier resistance to barbs for example)

 

[Snowbird]

@Snowbird I would have moved exacly as @sylvanllewelyn moved, although on T1 I would likely have moved back and settled on the ivory.

And I would not. I think seafood is worth anything only in case it is fish and looking for fish is too much of a gamble.
On T0 /I would use scout to dessert hill to check FP, if there are more FP (unlikely) with some food, well that is worth checking. Settler 1SE - check 4tiles, if nothing settler 1W on PH. T1 - scout 1SE, to check the coast

I am very not sold on single clams being better than plaincow... But to everyone it's own.

In general--if one plays fractal maps blindly generator has a fairly decent chance for isolations and semiisos, so ... I used to ask someone to precheck maps for forum games. Either that or brace yourself and use iso skills.

 

[migalhone]

But with stone, they are so cheap so you can more or less build them everywhere. They add 3000 soldiers instead of the normal 2000 for walls, so they are en par with barracks which also gives 3000 soldiers. So somewhat cheap way to bump up power rating...?

Apologies for the off-topic question:
Buildings provide power rating, as if they were soldiers? Is there a list i can check that shows the power rating per building? Or do i have to delve into game files?

 

[Snowbird]

Not mine, but seems legit....
(For BTS 3.17)
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Castles, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

In most situations bump in power most likely does nothing. Especially since walls give an effect worth of a single warrior.

 

[konata_LS]

It's possible this is an Iso map. Deity Iso with plain cow start would be a little brutal .

Still, the island looks decent for growing your cities, because you already saw 2 happiness resources (Ivory + Wine) and 5 health resources (cow + fish + clam + deer + sheep).

On the other hand, might be a problem, as you have no gold or gem nearby. There is no stone or marble, so failgold cannot be a reliable solution.

If the scout confirms the isolation in the next few turns, I think Fishing would be more important than Agri, as there is no cereal crops in sight but there are fish and clam. Fishing also leads to Pottery.

@krikav

Spoiler :

Yes, CHA sieges are really nice. And for this ALC map, 2 extra- from CHA make the isolation less difficult.

Piggies are very good for the civs who start with Hunting, but Myst is less useful than Mining or Agri during the early game. Personnally I even value Fishing more than Myst, because Fishing provides early and while Myst provides none. Fishing becomes even better for FIN leaders like Hannibal or WvO. In one of Henrik's recent videos, he played as Hannibal in a coastal start and showed FIN with Fishing can be very powerful.

 

[krikav]

Apologies for the off-topic question:
Buildings provide power rating, as if they were soldiers? Is there a list i can check that shows the power rating per building? Or do i have to delve into game files?

I checked this article out. Cut&Pasted out the relevant BTS stuff and have them in a file in my civ4-stuff folder.
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/

 

[krikav]

@konata_LS

Spoiler :

Ofcourse comaring the stuff in the bottom of the barrel, but with myst it's almost as if you start with the ability to build wealth which can be very good if you want to grow but don't want to build more warriors.
And it's quite common that you can land a chop or two into henge for a nice cash injection too. Sometimes you can go mason before mining too which can be nice.
Fishing is very cheap, and starting with fishing only really shines when you actually want to go workboat first.

 

[migalhone]

I checked this article out. Cut&Pasted out the relevant BTS stuff and have them in a file in my civ4-stuff folder.
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...orkings-of-the-demographics-screen-explained/

Thanks for the link!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I got depressed playing this map. I feel like I could have done many things better. I tried to follow the comments as best as I could. I feel like I am publicly embarrassing myself in slow motion. But I committed and I will follow through.

I do remember successfully deterring warmongers by building walls and barracks in every city. Niche but occasionally useful. For this game, obviously not useful.

Round 2: tool-age hunter-gatherers (3400BC - 600AD)

They made tools out of sticks and bones for there were no metal deposits. No fine works of art for there were no precious stones. They wore animal skins for there were no silks nor dyes to ordain their primitive coverings. No great works of art, for there were no stone or marble to quarry. No knowledge of agriculture, for there were no suitable local vegetation. No fine cuisine, for there were no spice or fruits to speak of. No systematic religious or belief system, only various superstitions.

They were surrounded by oceans and believed they were the only humans in the world. The small bones that remained in far-off corners, archaeological remains of fights long forgotten, are now treated as haunted and avoided.

2400BC, island successfully fogbusted. In other news, the Oracle already built five (5) turns ago.

Spoiler :

Fogbusting is not free. 3 gold a turn is a real cost at this stage. I had to let barbarian galleys appear because I could not afford busting the coasts until later.

Spoiler :

Or maybe I made a huge mistake by going mining / bronze working. Maybe, I should have went fishing / the wheel / pottery first.

4 cities at 500BC. Slow pace of expansion deliberate.

Spoiler :

One more in the SE corner and the no more cities until astronomy. I didn't forget monarchy, I skipped it on purpose. No lighthouses because they don't do anything until astronomy.

Situation at 600AD

Spoiler :

The colour of the culture borders gave it away. Unintended game feature.

I don't see any possibility of a win condition at this point. Maybe, perhaps maybe, one of those legendary "true diplomatic" victories where you remain small when you win?