[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 34: Celtia / Brennus.

If your ‘s’ annotations are for city sites, why not settle 1W of horse avoiding orphaning the fish in the SW?

Isolation is outside my comfort zone but you look like you’re doing ok :)
 
@sylvanllewelyn
I like most of your decisions here. Staying small, focusing heavily on research, prioritizing optics.
I see that you are two turns away from a GSci in that T140 screenshot, if you already have one GSCi standing somewhere, you are in a pretty good position imho.

I think the game could be improved upon. Optimizing things in iso is very tricky. But all strategic decisions are correct I think.
Well, other than perhaps the thing you mentioned, where going for some early economic tech instead of pushing for BW.
BW and the production burst you get is way less relevant in ISO when there isn't any rush to settle spots.

If it's possible to win from that situation depends so much on what the other AIs are up to. If they are all happy trading stuff and techpace is blazing, then it's really really tough. But most of the times, there is some or at least one weakling that you can strike and gain enough land to work with. Toku is a notable example, that poor guy always seem to fall behind, cross your fingers that he is present!
Your starting island is also pretty nice, quite a few resources to trade around.
 
@sylvanllewelyn Oh, now I saw the 500bc screenshot. You went for early alpha.
That might have been strategically off. But hard to say without playing.
 
I love these sorts of maps - definitely my favourite!

Looks pretty good so far.

How much does the island look like Australia?!
 
The next phase -> Astro is normally ok

after that I find it more tricky getting the balance right, maybe good to pause for advice there
 
Knowing it was a isolation map, I couldn't resist trying it out.
T132 optics:
Spoiler :


Settled on the elephant, getting sheep/cow in BFC. Working a rivertile for one turn to sync up worker with AH.
AH->Mining->Fish (to unlock the lake) -> TW -> Pottery -> BW.
Settler was delayed to get 55 failgold from SH.
Settled the two most rich positions I could find for city#2 and city#3 Vienne/Tolosa.
Stayed at these three cities for quite some time. Chopped very heavily.
The idea being that these 3 cities must be ready and developed to run scientists forever at T85 something.
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Monarchy is almost in and some of the 3 starting cities has finished slow-building settlers.
next two cities is here, and a city to get all the juicy riverland in the south-west, growing on Tolosas grassland sheep that it doesn't need.
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Man... I was SO proud of putting of the slavery switch until monarchy so I could do a double switch.
So much for paying attention to what leader I was playing. :(
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Capital got to spawn the first guy. Had to slow down Vienne/Tolosa to make this happen.
Not entierly sure academy is the way to go here, the capital is rather weak.
The strategy to churn out 3 GSci quick might be off too, to much focus on GPP and too little on cottages.
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Closing in on optics, I whip a forge for some overflow, then the turn before optics I whip a settler that I had at < 25 hammers for even more overflow.
This is to 1-turn a caravel at optics.
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In the west, the strong city was abit too far away, so settled a city here to have some culture to upgrade a trireme in. Want to move west/east asap to get that circumnavigation asap!
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At optics:
Here I want to get some more cities up asap. From being all important a turn ago, the value of commerce is waaaaay down, and the value of production is through the roof.
Don't know many times that there is such a sharp pivot in civ4 as there is once you reach optics in Iso.

The cities need to get up to speed, to be able to contribute to a war effort shortly, whip some units or draft some rifles.
The island is horrid in that it lacks iron, something that is very very uncommon in iso.
I guess the thing to try if iron can't be aquired elsewhere is to go for something like rifles+trebs/catapults.
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@5tephen Correct, the sign is on the wrong tile. Clearly I want to work the fish.

I am aware that monarchy is the standard go-to technology for isolation. I was trying to be cute and make full use of the charismatic trait. Having decided to skip monarchy, I then felt that I had to go for alphabet to convert my production into research since I would not be training warriors. I did not feel like paying maintenance for warriors that I would later delete. I was thinking I will need alphabet / aesthetics / calendar to bulb astronomy anyway.

Another reason is I had no copper and no iron! You are supposed to pre-build units before invading someone. But chariots are the best I can make and I thought that 4 strength units are a waste of cargo space. Siege only damages units down to 25% strength but that's still enough to fend off chariots. I was hoping to pre-build Gallic warriors but nope...

Still, perhaps it was a sub-optimal decision.

Round 3: first contact (600AD - 740AD). Status report upon reaching astronomy.

A glittering city that, hopefully, I can eventually capture. I am not sure why there is a stack of caravels just sitting in the city and not exploring.

Spoiler :

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I can see the world wonders and national wonders clearly. I am not sure if I can comprehensive deduce all the city improvements that are there. If I could, that tells me a little bit about which dates they got the various technologies. These two neighbour are advanced and already have optics but not many cities.

First tech trade of the game. I am behind, WFYABTA be darned.
Spoiler :

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I could have taken polytheism but I wanted the gold more. I know my population is too small and that my two scientists cannot fully-bulb astronomy.

I then met a glorious civilisation that took pity on us, the barbarians.
Spoiler :

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The exchanges happened in order. I traded compass for horseback riding and 20 gold. This got me +4 relations. I couldn't get anything more expensive, nor slip in another cheap tech with HBR. HBR is usually useless and a waste of WFYABTA. In my case... I can now build elephants! 8 strength is a lot better than 4.

Then... they just gave me a technology. This is a sign! Now I have to play this game to conclusion.

Next turn I trade away optics for whatever I can get because I am already seeing caravels everywhere. I actually wanted that little bit of gold. Priesthood doesn't do anything but is on the path to everything.

Diplomatic situation
Spoiler :

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Why they haven't met each other? They got caravels everywhere and their culture borders are close. Anyway I think there are three religious blocs of two players each. No wars were fought and no great generals born, which gave me a real scare. Once they do meet, the tech pace will greatly accelerate.

Civics situation:
Spoiler :

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Yes, nobody is running bureaucracy. A bit unfortunate that the Byzantines have 15 cities and are running mercantilism. That's a lot of cities that do not provide foreign trade routes.

Technology situation
Spoiler :

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I checked what they would give for astronomy. It didn't seem like anyone was close to completing it themselves. So now it is just tediously checking every turn for their progress towards astronomy.

Wonders
Spoiler :

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Babylon just finished the Taj Mahal. China just found Islam (wouldn't it be wonderful if they complete the Versailles?). Notice there is still one more civ undiscovered - - the one that built the Oracle 2600BC and hoarded some others. That one, whoever it is, could threaten culture victory later on.

The trading game
Spoiler :

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I will have a couple more other resources once I hook up everything. I think I have monopolies on deer and ivory. I could import copper from Babylon if need be. No-one has spare iron.
 
Round 4: trade carefully (740AD - 1050AD)

I never had the chance to mass up elephants. I had neither the food nor the population.

Initial resource trades. Small adjustments as the game progresses. A resource and 6 gold for ivory. Half a kingdom for a horse. Not sure why they want horses so much.

Spoiler :

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Trade astronomy away cheaply to the weaker neighbours, accept lopsided deals, stay below WFYABTA.

Spoiler :

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I declined to take polytheism. I do need to spend one turn getting agriculture. I want to use farms to grow my new cities more quickly for whipping or drafting.

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Declined to take archery. Hunting with bow and arrow are for cowards. Real Celts hunt lions with clubs.


The next move is patience. Pay attention to the tech trade screen.

Spoiler :

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I want nationalism. The obvious move is to trade away astronomy to Ethiopia for civil service and guilds, and then trade astronomy to Babylon for nationalism. That would not work. Nationalism is a monopoly tech and Babylon won't trade it away to me or anyone else, until someone else also has it. BUT as soon as someone else has nationalism, Ethiopia will trade astronomy to Babylon for nationalism. The two have been best religious buddies on the same continent since forever. So the astronomy < - - > nationalism trade with Babylon will never happen.

I need to wait.

Magnificent discovery on 860AD:

Spoiler :

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Iron! On an outlying island that will cost a lot of maintenance and contribute nothing to the economy. (Okay I will have 2 foreign trade routes but still.) I can trade for it but having my own is a lot more reliable.

Meanwhile Mongolia tries to be crazier than Montezuma:

Spoiler :

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I checked three times. Mongolia, bottom score, declared war on Byzantine, top score. No I am not joining. I got one warrior per city.

Then they demanded that I pay them tribute
Spoiler :

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By this point the Chinese, the Confucian brothers to the Byzantines, have also declared war on Mongolia already. No I am not scared of them. It is even tempting for me to declare also just for diplo points, or, at least join in the dogpile later on. (But I won't).

900AD, the Byzantines are willing to trade away guilds, which lead to the following trade sequence

Spoiler :

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I stop at 1050AD, upon reaching gunpowder.

Spoiler :

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Mongolia would be the easier target but I believe that line of play will lose me the game. My current frame of mind is that I have to take on the more advanced China or die trying.
 
@sylvanllewelyn I have played along the map further, and alot of things are similar. Religious divides are almost copies except Khan had a minority religion spread that he adopted, Qin was in FR due to Swedagon Paya.
I decided to preserve my monopoly on astro for ages though, and basically didn't trade anything with either Qin or Khan.
Could be that I got into the trading game earlier and got some stuff for machinery/compass/optics that you missed out on.
I ignored most of the techs you need/want and just churned along to guilds and used that to get philo/paper/cs / etc.
Traded further at gunpowder and possibly at chem too, can't remember.
But noone got to Astro for ages and ages, and I didn't give them it either. No astro for them means more safety on the island, and later privateers, most maps they also benefit alot from astro, but here they maybe already have offshore traderoutes?

It too, was my ambition to strike Qin first. My reasoning was that Khan will fall further and further behind in tech, and I can always go for him later.
Them being at war likely causes them to spam more units though (or do they perhaps throw them away at each other?)
Also, Qin didn't have horses, and not having to deal with knights is sweet.
Khans terrain where more favourable imho though, more good landing spots with hills/forests next to almost every city.

How Justinian/Darius chopped out that island is almost a pure mirror image of my game. Can't believe Darius let Justinian get all of that.
In my game, those two hated each others guts the entire game, and Justinian declared on him multiple times, forcing me to pay away monopoly techs each time to not have Darius fold like a paper bag, giving me a nightmare Justinian to handle.

Oh, I was overjoyed at that iron island too, saved to much headache. :D
 
Why would you play out this map? I did not think it would be a challenge for you.

I was tediously checking the price I am getting for astronomy, for every player, every turn, (that's why I don't stream), and the price I got was reducing every turn, so people were researching astronomy. AI tech choices can be random, just like war declarations. You are right, holding onto it means one more expensive tech for the AI to chew through. I did get a couple of trades pre-astronomy but yeah, no spare commerce to self-research guilds.

Why is not having to deal with knights "sweet"? I got elephants, I prefer facing knights and even curaissers. Qin is protective, now I have to fight CGIII longbows, soon to be muskets. Similarly, I prefer that they waste production on frigates and privateers. The landmasses are so close, I can drop units and hide back into a city, or an ally's city, or run away, so all their navy won't protect their cities. I won't produce privateers myself because I lack population, food, and production.

In my game, Justinian hates Darius too but they did not fight. On the other hand, Qin is religious buddies with Justinian, now war buddies as well. If they sign defensive pact later on, then I... attack Darius? (Lol I don't even know). Darius expanded slowly because they were going cultural.
 
Haven't played a Iso game in ages, thats why I jumped on board. :D
Allmost all deity games have the potential to spiral out of control, this map is no different.

You are right about knights/War elephants. I don't know why I never thought about that, I never traded for or teched HBR and it didn't occur to me that they would be good.
They are good cannon support units for sure, so that was a blunder on my part.
 
A potential Defensive Pact between Qin and Justy are less troublesome than peaceful vassal: Qin only has 6 cities while Justy has 15. Qin might peacefull vassal to Justy when they get Friendly with each other.

On the other hand, Darius might adopt FR later (his favourite civics).

That iron island is a great discovery :goodjob:. With iron, attacking with Cannons would be possible.
 
I forgot the Noble's Club also had a Brennus game. That map and that start is a slice of heaven compared to what I got!

Justinian did not attack Darius but other annoying things can happen. I never had anything to bribe anyone to do anything. I had little control over how the game unfolded.

Round 5: Conquest of China (1050AD - 1520AD)

Recap: 860AD, Genghis, bottom score, declared on Justinian, top score and clear leader. The predictable result was a round of group-retaliation (PG forum sorry) by both Qin of China and Zara Yaqob of Ethiopia. 3v1 and its the Khan's own doing.

Trust me when I say I am not pleased to see this development at all!

By 1170AD, the gang also "requested" that I join in. No because I wanted to maintain all the foreign trade routes.

Spoiler :

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On the contrary, I (basically) gifted whatever I had just to hope that he holds out for longer.

Spoiler :

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1180AD, Military tradition is in and I traded it around.

Spoiler :

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@konata_LS I know we're supposed to go cannons but my economy is so weak and backwards I need to try something else. That secret sauce is... free market! I think I got, like, a 60 raw-commerce boost immediately, and I'm being conservative.

An important diplomatic decision to make in 1210AD

Spoiler :

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Well... the Babylonians gifted us the secrets of currency remember? How can I refuse their simple request? Although it does mean I have now aligned myself with the Hindu bloc, against the Confucian bloc. It's not optimal because the Apostolic Palace is Confucian.

Since I went military tradition, I drafted and whipped and sailed to China by 1240AD:
Spoiler :

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Strategy: Beijing is on a hill and loaded with units because China is at war with Mongolia. My order of attack is Shanghai - - > Guangzhou - - > Beijing. Once I land, units will be drawn out from Beijing to try to fight me. Obviously I prefer fighting enemies in the field. It also eases some pressure off Mongolia (thank goodness they signed peace with Ethiopia shortly before).

The key to this is... wait for this... the dun! Well okay I only build one in the capital but still that's a couple of muskets with guerilla II for stack protection. More importantly, as I throw muskets against cities, and being charismatic, survivors can gain the guerilla II promotion.

This detail is important. Look at the map carefully. After Shanghai, my surviving muskets can keep up with the curaissers. Is the Dun good? No. But striking with the whole stack one turn sooner is not nothing because it's one turn sooner _ _ per city _ _.

Trebuchets have no role in this. They move too slowly, are useless against castles, and frankly I don't have the production. Gunpowder ignore castle defense so I am "only" fighting CGIII longbows with 60% defense.

1260AD more trading, this time also for an important tech:

Spoiler :

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1320AD, after taking the three cities, I declare a peace treaty. For me it was the same thing as a ceasefire because I needed 10 turns to prepare the next attack anyway.

Spoiler :

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Stingy AI personality. Even later on, right before I finish them off, they still didn't offer anything besides capitulation.

1360AD: Justinian summons the AP to give me trouble. My cold dead hands.

Spoiler :

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1420AD: the second campaign begins, and I faced more determined and advanced resistance. This defending stack would normally cost me at least a dozen muskets and several curaissers. But this time I had cannons and the kill-death ratio was a turnaround from the first campaign.

Another use for the guerilla II promotion: pillaging strategic resources on hills. I saw ironclad, ship of the line, cannons, frigates, and other nonsense. Real shame if I pillaged the only source of iron.

Spoiler :

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1520AD tech situation when China fell:

Spoiler :

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Outline of current situation

- Ethiopia and Babylon, the Hindu brothers, signed a defensive pact long ago. I am friendly with Babylon.

- During 1440AD, near the beginning of my second campaign to conquer China, the Mongols capitulated to Byzantine. Mongolia was no longer at war with China and no cities were lost. This is the capitulation I least wanted to see - - when the vassal's lands are completely intact!

- Byzantine is worst enemies of Babylon and Persia. Persia is worst enemies of Byzantine. (Mongolia is worst enemies of Ethiopia but I don't think Zara Yaqob is dumb enough to... )

- Babylon just asked me to stop trading with them. Stop trading with the leading faction is good idea but, logistically, I needed access to Byzantine lands to attack Persia. I am not sure what to do.

- Beijing had two settled great generals and many workshops so I build the heroic epic there. Around two (2) cannons every three (3) turns. I can aimlessly crank cannons.

- I have no galleons left. (Former) China invested heavily in combat navy and sunk everything. In fact, had it not been circumnavigation bonus, the game would have ended before it began.
 
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I was busy with my off-line game in the past few days and didn't check the updated ALC. It seems you've found an effective solution of preventing Qin from peacefully vassaling to Justy.:goodjob:

Since Brennus is SPI, if you feel unsafe, you can always switch back to Confu 5 turns later.

The hills in Chinese land were fun for dun-promoted Muskets :cool:.

Sometimes is hard to understand AIs. GK cap to Justy without losing a single city, oh :crazyeye:...

It looks like there are some nice grassland in your newly conquered land and you already have Chemistry. Maybe send workers to workshop those tiles?... In that case, Communism becomes tempting, for SP workshops and +10% :hammers:.
 
I was busy with my off-line game in the past few days and didn't check the updated ALC. It seems you've found an effective solution of preventing Qin from peacefully vassaling to Justy.:goodjob:

Good news: Qin did not peace vassal to Justinian. Bad news: Genghis capitulated to Justinian! AI behaviour matters. Qin is bottom of the list in terms of focus on unit training. Genghis is one of the top. As vassal, Genghis will be gifted the latest military hardware.

Do I want to go communism... I have so many lines of play at the strategic level, I am not sure what to do. I do want to note that I don't have a lot of tiles that can be turned into workshops and watermills. I am also scared of being forced into environmentalism by the UN. It is, after all, already the beginning of the 16th century.

Edit: No wars are happening but Justinian is plotting. What's worse: plotting on Persia, or me? They got airships, machine guns, and over a hundred artillery.
 
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@sylvanllewelyn
Environmentalism and emancipation forced by UN are really troublesome. If possible, capturing the UN city might become an alternative of avoiding 5-:mad: from defying a resolution.

15 cities' Justy is certainly a problem. Plus he got a vassal. Switching to Justy's religion and begging 1:gold: would make you know who's Justy's target. But if Justy plots on Persia, since Hammi is friendly, if Justy declares on Darius, maybe you could switch back to Hindu and bribe Hammi in a war against Justy? ...at least, this would buy you some time for post-war recovery and preparation for the next war.
 
@konata_LS
Free religion is the (only) UN resolution that decisively ends the game. The others have pros and cons and can be worked around. Everyone else is already running emancipation and environmentalism.

@krikav
Persia did not fold because they were paper bags. Multiple great generals appearing on both sides but Persia lost two major cities in quick succession. The Byzantines really are that strong.

Round 6a: The Liberation of Mongolia (1520AD - 1645AD)

After thinking about win conditions, my diplomacy has to be team Hindu.

Spoiler :

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Since I am about to _ _ go to war _ _ with them, there would not be much trading. Anyway they have been plotting for awhile, I actually hope it's me, but probably it's Persia.

1520AD, I just finished rifling. I was surprised to find that I can trade it around:

Spoiler :

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Persia is about to get attacked by giant stacks of artillery, infantry, and destroyers. And they had no rifling.

Meanwhile I start drafting rifles, (re-)building galleons, and whipping cannons. Upgrade curaissers into cavalry.

Celtic galleons from Beijing are great. Heroic Epic and two AI-settled great generals means galleons start with 4xp. Saves the effort of building the drydocks. Combined with circumnavigation bonus and the charismatic trait, galleons can get the navigation I promotion and have 6 movement. If I add the drydocks later, the ships can start with navigation II.

1530AD: war declaration as expected. It is beyond a reasonable doubt that Persia will capitulate. Ten turns (10) minimum, or 1580AD. During this time, Byzantine will be unable to fully support Mongolia.

Spoiler :

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Meanwhile Mongolia is still governed by idiots. I declare war by 1570AD.

Spoiler :

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I am never going to have enough galleons to carry my whole army across in one go. It will have to be two trips. But I need a way to make sure the units from the first trip survive for one turn, before the units from the second trip arrives. So I choose a hill tile as a landing site. Rifles with experience points get guerilla I. Cannons get the drill promotion.

Spoiler :

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Of the 27 units in the first trip, 24 survive. As good as it gets. Also notice the short distances between China and Mongolia, and between the cities. I can hide galleons in cities, transport units around, conveyor-belt them if need be, and hide in cities at the end of every turn. Naval movement much faster than horses. Enemy swarms of frigates and destroyers rendered moot.

1580AD insta-capitulation as expected. And then the Byzantines, wielding the Apostolic Palace, wants the war to stop immediately. No way. Go jump into a lake.

Spoiler :

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A great general appears in the worst possible location.

Spoiler :

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Meanwhile I am getting invaded at home by fighters, bombers, infantry, and guided missiles. Destroyers run roughshod over my shores. I got nothing but cavalry and rifles. I cannot attack the forces that landed. I cannot just sit back and garrison the city. I cannot ignore it. I cannot negotiate peace until Mongolia is liberated from the clutches of the Byzantines.

I need to delay.

Spoiler :

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There is a fort on a hill, and forests 1S. From these tiles, I can reinforce Nanjing, or, attack Xian. The critical part is that the AI is programmed to consider this.

Specifically the AI is scripted to do two things:
1. Capture Nanjing. Easily done, but...
2. Prevent Xian from being sniped while units are away. This means the AI will take time to carry more units across.

Both 1 and 2 can be easily accomplished, IF my nearby forces are wiped out. However, the AI also wants a certain chance of victory before assaulting units in forests and forts, which again means taking the time to carry more units across. If they move units around piecemeal, I can even snipe their units using cavalry. Nor do they want to use guided missiles against antiqued units.

1635AD siege of Ning-Hsia. Critical battle that will bring Mongolia's lands below 50% of area at capitulation. Notice the cannons carried by galleons. No time to bombard, just throw them in. Also throw the cavalry against the walls.

Spoiler :

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1545AD peace treaty at the nick of time. I delayed as much as possible. I surrender Chengdu for peace. This is anticipated and according to plan.

Spoiler :

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Round 6b: The Conquest of Mongolia (1645AD - 1705AD)

What goes into your mind when you hear the words "liberation army"?

Mongolian cities coming out of revolt are cold-whipped into cavalry and cannons. Units in China are shipped to the front. Throw everything in, lost almost everything, and the last Mongolian city falls in 1705AD.

Spoiler :

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Painful to throw those high-experience units but need to have the strategic picture. After cannons, rifles, and cavalry, the units of the next era are built from scratch. Also, I lost my galleons, again. Can't help it, served its purpose of moving units around.

Victory conditions. First, space race is clearly not an option:
Spoiler :

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Given that computers has been around for so long, I am surprised The Internet has not been constructed yet.

Ditto for SDI. So nuclear warfare is not really an option. True, physics - - > electricity - - > fission is conveniently on the great scientist path, but the ICBMs won't hit. Tactical nukes have very limited range so I can't choose _ _ from which angle _ _ to hit a city. Why is this a problem? Because after I nuke out a city, two-movement units stepping into fallout lose all their movement points. No walking into empty cities. Paratroopers don't work because paradrops cannot be performed from enemy cities in revolt.

But spaceship defeat is not the only threat, nor is it even the biggest threat.
Spoiler :

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Justinian, you SOB what are you doing! You captured and kept Bactra, a minor city, but captured and gave back Susa, one of the three major cities for cultural victory! Ridiculous.

But notice that the problems do not end there.

The next problem is that The United Nations was built by Babylon, not Byzantium.

If it were Byzantium, then I can turn every single tile into farms, try to push my population to second place, and then win diplomacy. I have been running Hinduism, bureaucracy, and theocracy for a long time. The Hindu buddies have waited to sign defensive pacts with me for a long time.

Spoiler :

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But how do overtake Byzantium in population? Before space or culture defeat? And in-time for elections. And dodge the free religion resolution.

Spoiler :

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And not get declared upon in the meantime by a very angry Justinian.
 
Paratroopers don't work because paradrops cannot be performed from enemy cities in revolt.
Very much false. As long as you captured city it can serve as paradrop point. Ditto for cities/forts of neutral AI's, IIRC all you need is open borders to that AI.

Typically one would capture some coastal cities and paradop the rest.


Overall... man up and capture UN. This is not farming simulation game afterall.
 
Very much false. As long as you captured city it can serve as paradrop point. Ditto for cities/forts of neutral AI's, IIRC all you need is open borders to that AI.

Typically one would capture some coastal cities and paradop the rest.


Overall... man up and capture UN. This is not farming simulation game afterall.

Really? Thanks for paradropping the advice! In that case, I can (in theory) attack and capture Constantinople with tactical nukes to to stop the spaceship through SDI.

Assuming the UN does not ban nukes.

If the UN does ban nukes, then you are correct, I will need to backstab Babylon and capture the UN. But I need to know the details of capitulation.

Specifically, do I always get the opportunity to vassalise an enemy, because I am the human player and I go first?

Or, it is possible for an AI to be above capitulation threshold, refuse to capitulate to me, lose more battles during their turn, and then capitulate to another player?

I really really do not want to cripple Babylon, only to see it capitulate to Justinian!!
 
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