[BTS] All Leaders Challenge Game 35: Suryavarman / Khmer

[sylvanllewelyn]

All Leaders Challenge Game 35: Suryavarman / Khmer


ALC 1-32 is here.

ALC 33 is here. Feature(s): espionage and corporations.

ALC 34 is here. Feature(s): first deity ALC. Isolation using charismatic happiness.

Round 0: initial scout and settler move
Round 1: weekend drunken vision for the future (3960BC -- 2000BC T50)
Round 2: make haste slowly (2000BC - - 800AD T155)
Round 3: astronomy for sale (800AD T150 -- 960AD T158)
Round 4: United Nations and the hidden Apostolic Palace (960AD - - 1846AD T293)
Epilogue

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that games are going to be played with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, an attempt will be made to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the starting saved game file, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses.


Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.


In this ALC game I’ll be playing as Suryavarman of Khmer. In ascending leader alphabetical order, this is the first civilisation that has not been completed in the ALC series from 1 to 34.


My thoughts on this leader? All the bonuses are mild but always useful. Creative is well-regarded in deity because the bonus is concentrated in the early-game where players think it matters. Expansive has its fans but the magnitude feels small for me. The combination gives it a fast start which is what I observe when played by the AI. The UU bonus rarely comes up but elephants are good on their own - - note that the effect only works when attacking enemies outside cities. The UB is great but please remember it's not something you build early in every city.


The game settings are: Deity, Fractal, Cylindrical, Standard, Temperate, Medium Sea Level, Ancient Starting Era, Normal Game Speed, No Tribal Villages, No Random Events.

Spoiler :

The start.

Spoiler :

We want to settle on the plains-hill but without ruining the fish. It appears we are in a peninsula so we should move North, or expand North. This means scout North. Or search the coast to the South and look for seafood.

 

[konata_LS]

A new ALC

Once again "Fractal"... Maybe this time you would like to invite a third party to check if the map is isolated?
Iso is certainly challenging and some players like Iso. But in Iso map, the readers won't have opportunities to see how you deal the early diplomacy or early warfare.

What if moving the scout to the PH forests 2N? If there is some food near 2N of the scout, settle on that PH forests would be better than SIP. In that case, the fish could be saved for the 2nd or 3rd city .

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Fractal because the results are very random. No preferred map script. Suggestions appreciated. Leader choice has to be a civ not done before.

Isolation is not fun but Suryavarman is more suited than the previous one. The benefit is showing off the late-game options.

Round 0: initial scout and settler move

I moved the scout 2N and the settler 1N

Spoiler :

Trapped in a small area by jungle. Brilliant.

 

[jnebbe]

Does settling on sugar give you a 3 or no, I can't remember. If it does I would settle 1N, then maybe another city 2S and another 2S of rice

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I’d use the settler’s remaining movement to go NE and then, next turn, move the scout 1N to see if the plains hill looks more appealing as a T2 settle than the sugar as a T1 settle. I suspect it won’t but you can’t settle on the sugar this turn anyway.

I’m not sure on the maths but I’d generally prefer a two hammer cc time to three food, especially with expansive.

 

[pigswill]

Move settler NE. You can't found a city on sugar this turn anyway and more knowledge is always better. Maybe next turn send scout south east to check for seafood before moving settler and you might be in a better position to decide on capital location.

Because this is ALC you really need ivory.

 

[zahoo]

Agree on moving settler 1NE then maybe check seafood SE of the peninsula with the scout (tricky tough because even if we move 1SE -> 1SE I think we will still have 1 mystery ocean tile 2S of the southermost plains tile that can have fish), then, if nothing found, settling on PH the scout currently is on can be an option. That's a T3 settle though, so I guess it must be justified for an extent.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Agree southeast needs scouting but I wouldn’t go there next. It’s hard to envisage what you’d find that would make you settle anywhere other than the sugar or, if there’s something exciting there, the uncovered plains hill. The only way you can evaluate settling on the plains hill is by moving the scout on to it.

Even if there’s loads of fish in the southeast, I wouldn’t put my first city there. Fishing starts are slow enough without wondering across the map for one. The sugar and plains hill justify moving because of the extra yield on the cc tile.

They also block more land.

I don’t think I’d consider the forested plains hill either. You waste a forest, lose a turn compared with the sugar, looks like you’re more likely to orphan seafood than with a settle 1N and you don’t have access to the coast. This isn’t a massive point but retaining the option of going for the GLH is nice and so are expansive harbours.

I am but a lowly immortal player though.

 

[Izuul]

That's a tough looking start. It appears the jungle belt is just to the north there so i would expect barb trouble.

I also agree on moving the settler 1NE this turn. If you don't find anything new, settle on the southern sugar next turn.

 

[krikav]

Agree with movement/settling considerations of previous posters.
I think that settling on one sugar and working another and growing to pop2 before starting worker might be a good idea.
only takes 6 turns, and if starting worker T1 when settling, it doesn't look like it's possible to get 4 hammers for that nice exp bonus.

Could be a tough map!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@jnebbe I like this plan. Saves the fish and shares the cow. Slight preference for the extra food from sugar.

@Mr_Trotsky I agree with your scouting plan. Even if scouts find seafood, it will not affect capital choice. I should scout for capital location first, and surroundings later.

@Izuul No barbarian problems. All the production and nothing to spend it on. Spam warriors.

Round 1: weekend drunken vision for the future (3960BC -- 2000BC T50)

My build was worker --> warrior. Went animal husbandry. Scouted the map. Then I was like, cool beans.

Spoiler :

AH, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, writing.

Suggestions for future tech path appreciated.

Spoiler :

The Oracle will complete next turn.

 

[Izuul]

ISO. Tough map indeed. Oracle CoL over Monarchy?

At some point in the very near future you need IW and Pottery.

 

[krikav]

ISO. Tough map indeed. Oracle CoL over Monarchy?

At some point in the very near future you need IW and Pottery.

Another Iso map?!
WIll have to play it then.

 

[Izuul]

Should i be putting stuff in spoilers now? I haven't posted in one of these threads before.

 

[krikav]

For my sake, it was good that you didn't. Now I didn't open @sylvanllewelyn s post.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Should i be putting stuff in spoilers now? I haven't posted in one of these threads before.

No. Sisiutil's ALCs are a participatory legacy. I was told to put pictures in spoiler tags for mobile users. No secrets.

Another Iso map?!
WIll have to play it then.

No you don't. I am sick of iso. Next game is Pangaea.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I’ve got a job for this sort of punishment.

I’d oracle monarchy. Happiness situation makes monarchy essential whereas COL is just a nice option. I’d also prefer not to found a religion because it means everyone hates you when you meet them and it prevents religion autospreads from giving you diplomatic options down the line. I also reckon you can probably get the scientists you need for an Astro bulb from creative libraries.

That assumes you can/want to go that route. I’m never sure of bulbing paths and I ignore meditation when going Astro to avoid opening the philosophy bulb but I don’t know whether I actually need to do that. I think not. I’d also worry a bit about pollution of the GP pool from the oracle scuppering the whole thing but still think it’s worth getting if you can.

In terms of other tech choices, I think I’d go BW, fishing, pottery and the reassess. I think you need BW before pottery because you need to clear some land before cottaging in earnest and I reckon creative libraries can help you limp to pottery. Going BW first also allows a double switch into slavery and HR about the time you’ll need the happiness.

Agree that IW is likely to be next but I find it hard to judge whether you’ll actually have the workers to start clearing jungle at that stage or if you could perhaps squeeze something else in first.

 

[pigswill]

Bulbing astronomy you need to avoid med (or CoL), CS and Theology (paper).

As a more general comment if you're playing ALC a la Sisiutil you need a map to showcase UU/UB. Isolated doesn't really do that. iirc (it was a few years ago) Sisiutil got someone to prepare a map for him so that it would meet ALC conditions for that leader but Sisiutil would still play it blind.

 

[Izuul]

I think Monarchy is the play for diplo reasons, but I dont hate CoL > Philo bulb > Pacifism. You can get by in Iso with size 5 cities and a size 6 cap, especially when you dont have a really strong commerce cap.

But, yeah, having AI already dislike you when you meet them is a serious downside to that approach.

The Oracle, in general, means GPP pollution though so there's likely a decent chance of popping a priest here which can foul up the Astro bulb plan regardless of approach.

 

[krikav]

GPP pullution here could probably be managed. Capital doesn't look good for GPGeneration. Trick is only to start running scientists in city#2 and city#3 fast enough so that they surpas capital which is running at a slow 2 points/turn.