All Things Star Trek

[EgonSpengler]

So long, gorgeous. You had a good run.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

 

[Arakhor]

89 is an excellent age to go.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Got all caught up on SNW Friday.
Is good. Shame they got rid of Hemmer so soon, right as he was getting some good character building. Though apparently the actor was told it was only ever going to be a one season role and his character was less a 'main character' and more a support for Uhura, which is okay. At least they had a plan with the character and didn't just kill him because they didn't know what to do.
Pike might actually be my favorite captain. At least he is giving Picard some serious competition.
I'm glad everything went well with SNW. It is like the studio heard everyone saying episode 2 of Disco2 (Terralysium) was such a great episode and decided to commission a series of Terralysiums.
Valka, I get you have an instinctive reaction to dislike all new Star Trek, but I highly recommend Strange New Worlds.

I gave DiscoTrek and Picard a fair chance and hated them both. When they weren't laughably and eye-rollingly arrogant (oh, look, a human foster-sister for Spock... where have I seen that before? Oh, right, in 50-YEAR-OLD FANFICTION).

It was always made clear in TOS that Sarek opposed Spock's enlistment in Starfleet because it would mean Spock having to commit violence and killing. Starfleet IS a military organization, and Sarek fully expected Spock to do the traditional Vulcan thing of embracing logic, becoming a scientist, and at some point at least considering a career in diplomacy. Serving aboard a starship that could be sent into a war zone at any time did not sit well with Sarek, and it caused an 18-year estrangement between father and son.

But wait... here's Michael Burnham, Starfleet's Superwoman, who in the course of one story is lauded as being ready for a captaincy and then court-martialed for mutiny. Burnham seems to have a cozy, chatty relationship with foster-father Sarek, who doesn't seem to mind his ward being in Starfleet, even though she also could be sent into a war zone at any time and have to kill other sentient beings.

So she rates Sarek's respect and is considered worth talking to. Spock is shunned and Sarek tries to ignore him completely in "Journey to Babel". How does this even work? It puts DiscoTrek outside of the TOS timeline by virtue of Burnham's very existence (not to mention a whole laundry list of other things, like the design of the ship and the existence of those Doctor Who-type monsters they want us to think of as Klingons).

Apparently SNW is a sequel to DiscoTrek, if I understand correctly.

Based on the argument upthread, SNW is definitely not following the same timeline as TOS, so... no, thanks.

I honestly get the impression that Enterprise and all newer spinoffs aren't really prequels to TOS, but rather are meant as prequels to TNG while ignoring TOS (since there are so many retcons).

There are times when I enjoy AU Star Trek stories. But not when a whole TV series won't actually admit to being AU and pretends to "mesh seamlessly" with the source material when it's obvious that it doesn't.

In the case of writing a sequel, a spinoff, or a fanfic, I think it's incumbent upon the writer to honor the original material.

[/QUOTE]
Exactly. And that's why I barely find Enterprise tolerable (was bored one Friday, it was all that was on TV, so I watched some).

As mentioned, if you plan to do an AU, or a "what if" story, SAY SO. Don't be coy and dishonest with the audience, and then blame the audience for not "getting it" when they call you on your BS.

I write fanfiction. I've tried Star Trek and discovered that I am incapable of writing a serious ST story. It always starts veering off into the absurd, so I've concluded that the only Star Trek stories I'm any good at writing are crossover parodies. For instance, one of my works-in-progress involves a crossover parody combining Voyager, Bonanza, and a nod to Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I'm having fun with it, but I won't pretend that it's either canon Voyager or Bonanza.

Another fanfic project is a crossover between Sliders and The Handmaid's Tale (1990 movie and novel, not the current TV series). It's an incredible challenge to make the Sliders characters sound and act like themselves, have THT sound and act like themselves, each group be true to itself when interacting, and pull off Margaret Atwood's prose and dialogue styles.

Am I making the effort to keep each set of characters and their backstories true to their respective source material? Oh, you better believe it. I think the end result will be worth it.

This is especially tricky in a prequel, because not only shouldn't you dismiss or contradict something the original has already established - a character trait, a plot point - but you also shouldn't introduce something new that would logically impact subsequent events or characters (subsequent in the timeline of the story). Alternate universes provide a nice opening to relieve yourself of that burden, as J.J. Abrams did with his movie. He could basically do whatever he wanted without worrying about continuity.

And with that extra level of difficulty in mind, I find that a lot of prequels simply didn't need to be prequels in the first place. The writers set the bar needlessly high for themselves, then got no payoff on the extra risk, and then some of them slam their faces into the bar, adding injury to insult. This was true for both Enterprise and Discovery (with one caveat - see below). There was no reason Enterprise couldn't have taken place after Voyager, and Discovery later still, alongside Picard.

The best prequels actually pick up on a dangling thread or unexplained nit, and fill it in for us, making the subsequent stories (again, 'subsequent' in the story's canonical timeline) better or clearer, or just more fun. The were actually two moments where ENT seized the day and did benefit from being a prequel, imho, in the episodes "Regeneration" and "In a Mirror, Darkly." The former clarified - and, imho, enhanced - the relationship between Picard and Q, and in the latter, we learned that Mirror Universe Sato became Empress as a result of acquiring the advanced warship from 'our' universe. (Was it ever said in Discovery whether Emperor Georgiou was a direct descendant of Empress Sato? I can't remember. If she was, I suppose it would follow that 'our' Georgiou was 'our' Hoshi's granddaughter, or whatever.)

Discovery was the worse offender. It abruptly introduced a Human sister of Spock, which is precisely the kind of thing prequels have to watch out for, and it really rubbed me with the wrong way with its depiction of Klingons. Both were a little insulting, in addition to not being very compelling or interesting, nor enriching what we already knew of those characters. If Discovery took place after Voyager (and after Enterprise, if I'd had my way) and those Klingons had been a whole new species of aliens, I would have thought "the writers had some good ideas and didn't quite pull them off, but oh well, you can't win 'em all." Burnham could still have been raised among Vulcans, her father didn't need to be Sarek and her brother didn't need to be Spock. Instead, they casually compromised decades of work by the writers that came before them and the interest of the fans that followed those stories, all for nothing. There was no payoff to this story about Klingons, taking place before even the events of TOS. Remember the episode of DS9 when some of the crew went back to "The Trouble With Tribbles" and O'Brien turns to Worf and says "Those are Klingons?" I think Worf says something like "We don't like to talk about it", with his typical taciturn delivery. That was self-aware and self-deprecating. The Klingon story arc in Discovery was just arrogant.

My nerd-scanners did ping once while watching SNW: I haven't seen "Space Seed" in years, but does the presence of La'an on the bridge of the Enterprise have any bearing on how Kirk and, especially, Spock reacted to or interacted with Khan? Or, rather, should knowing La'an have impacted Spock's later meeting with Khan, except we know that it didn't? I hope not, because I like La'an. She's a little bit of a throwback to Tasha Yar*.

Anyway, that one little potential-wrinkle aside, Strange New Worlds could be the best prequel series I've ever seen, not just in Star Trek.



* Speaking of, Denise Crosby's departure was a major bummer at the time, but the eventual payoff was great, and that was an example of a "retcon" that was brilliantly done. "Yesterday's Enterprise" was another example of a story which took the audience for a ride, in terms of violating the "yes, and" rule of improv, but it did it really well and added a lot to both the established canon and the ongoing story; it begins as an alternate-universe story and then turns out to be a prequel (if you haven't seen it, and you're any kind of Star Trek fan, you absolutely need to).

I loved "Yesterday's Enterprise", but still wish Denise Crosby hadn't left in the first place. Her character had lots of potential, but it seems the writers didn't give a damn about finding it.

89 is an excellent age to go.

Don't take this the wrong way, but she would have suffered less if she'd died a few years earlier. Dementia kills twice - first the mind, then the body. If the victim is lucky, the body's death happens years sooner.

It was months for my grandmother, and 12 years for my dad. Nichelle Nichols, if I recall the articles, suffered approximately 4-5 years.


BTW, anyone who has a strong stomach should read the Serenidad series of stories published by Orion Press (series of print fanzines that are also available online) that includes an in-universe explanation for the different versions of Klingons we've seen in TOS (the author even took the stance that Kang and his wife were of different races of TOS-Klingons). I say "strong stomach" because these stories are extremely violent and don't shy away from graphic descriptions.

 

[Arakhor]

Dementia is a terrible curse, I agree.

 

[Ajidica]

Apparently SNW is a sequel to DiscoTrek, if I understand correctly.

Very loosely.
Essentially when watching season 2 of Disco, CBS executives realizes two things:
1) Holy hell Anson Mount is a great captain.
2) The best episode was the slow stand alone episode (Terralysium) that gave the crew and story time to play with it.

So CBS decided to make a show about that, and they did some outstanding Star Trek episodes. There is some Gorn retcon, but considering the Gorn ever only appeared on-screen twice (well, three times technically) and were never mentioned outside of that, I'm fine with the retcons.
Some of the characters were underused, which is a shame, but it given how few episodes there are in a modern season not everyone can get a focus episode; and some characters are great as side characters. (Like Ortegas, who is just a chill character. No wangst or trauma here (yet)!)
Just watch it as its own thing, and pretend Disco and Picard never happened.

 

[Synobun]

Strange New Worlds has essentially no thematic, tonal, or story similarities with either Discovery or Picard.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Strange New Worlds has essentially no thematic, tonal, or story similarities with either Discovery or Picard.

Does Burnham exist in SNW's timeline? Are the Klingons the same as in DiscoTrek?

 

[Synobun]

Does Burnham exist in SNW's timeline? Are the Klingons the same as in DiscoTrek?

In only the abstract. The "wiping of Discovery from Starfleet's history" in season whatever of Discovery is in effect. I think there might be one errant mention of that ship, and Burnham, in the first season. Also, there is no chance Discovery can be involved in SNW's story, for reasons.

There are no interactions with klingons in SNW thus far. But they "fixed" the klingons anyway in Discovery after realizing everyone hated them and that the new prosthetics made it impossible for the actors to speak.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In only the abstract. The "wiping of Discovery from Starfleet's history" in season whatever of Discovery is in effect. I think there might be one errant mention of that ship, and Burnham, in the first season. Also, there is no chance Discovery can be involved in SNW's story, for reasons.

There are no interactions with klingons in SNW thus far. But they "fixed" the klingons anyway in Discovery after realizing everyone hated them and that the new prosthetics made it impossible for the actors to speak.

You realize that I'm asking because so far I've found the newer series to be the Star Trek equivalent of Brussels sprouts and I hate those, right?

 

[Synobun]

You realize that I'm asking because so far I've found the newer series to be the Star Trek equivalent of Brussels sprouts and I hate those, right?

Wait, you dislike NuTrek?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Wait, you dislike NuTrek?

Hate, loathe, despise, hold in contempt, detest, and probably a few hundred other similar words and phrases. There's just one bit of dialogue I found amusing. The rest is crap.

Though I will admit that before the first one was released, people speculated on how this version of Spock would behave. So someone started what grew to be a very long thread at TrekBBS, called "Zachary Quinto's Spock Should Be Constantly Shouting!"

The idea was that you could shout in that thread. It was preferred that you shout something Star Trek-related, but it didn't have to be. The one requirement was that you post in all-capital letters.

Any time someone forgot that, they were met with several posts of "WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Alas, after I forget how many hundreds of pages, one of the mods shut it down as spam. It was fun while it lasted, and rather cathartic some days to go post in the Shouting Spock thread.

 

[BenitoChavez]

considering the Gorn ever only appeared on-screen twice (well, three times technically)

No! 4 Times!

Spoiler :

 

[Smellincoffee]

You realize that I'm asking because so far I've found the newer series to be the Star Trek equivalent of Brussels sprouts and I hate those, right?

For what it's worth, I dislike the Abrams movies (save for casting & music) and can't watch either Disco or Picard -- but Strange New Worlds? Hell, I'd take it over Enterprise, much of Voyager, and the first season or so of The Next Generation. It's golden.

 

[Synobun]

Watch: ‘Strange New Worlds’ Showrunner Says Series Pitch Was “What If We Just Did Star Trek?”​

Watch: ‘Strange New Worlds’ Showrunner Says Series Pitch Was “What If We Just Did Star Trek?”

Henry Alonso Myers accepted HCA Legacy Award for the series over the weekend.

trekmovie.com

Over the weekend Star Trek: Strange New Words was honored by the Hollywood Critics Association with a special award and executive producer Henry Alonso Myers was there to accept, where he discussed how the show honors the legacy of Star Trek. The Star Trek Universe was also nominated for a couple of HCA Awards, but didn’t pick up any wins for the night.

Myers honors Star Trek legacy

The HCA Legacy award was bestowed on Strange New Worlds for being able to take on “a beloved property… without relying on nostalgia,” the series was singled out for being a “respectful tribute to the past while modernizing it in a fun and meaningful way, delighting original fans and a newer generation of devotees.” Co-showrunner Henry Alonso Myers was there to accept on behalf of the production and after acknowledging the stars and members of the creative team, Myers spoke about the show’s connection to Trek history, saying:

This award belongs to all of them, but it also belongs to Gene Roddenberry because it’s his legacy that this award is really all about, as well as the legacy of the many talented people who worked with him, like Nichelle Nichols, who we lost just a couple of weeks ago. In the first pitch document that we sent to the network… we opened with a question asking, “What if we just did Star Trek?” And they said, “Okay.” Every day in the writers’ room, we try to imagine how would Gene Roddenberry and his team make The Original Series if they were doing it today? They would use state-of-the-art visual effects. They would ask questions that deal with the politics of today. They would approach character thoughtfully like we expect from the best dramas. But most importantly, they would tell stories about the future that give us hope that there will be a future like this to look forward to.”

---

 

[EgonSpengler]

For what it's worth, I dislike the Abrams movies (save for casting & music) and can't watch either Disco or Picard -- but Strange New Worlds? Hell, I'd take it over Enterprise, much of Voyager, and the first season or so of The Next Generation. It's golden.

Yeah, TNG was one of those shows that took a minute to find itself. I'm not sure that show wouldn't get canceled after its first season today. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was like that, too. Both of those shows are among my all-time favorites, but I didn't start watching either of them regularly until their 2nd seasons, and many of their best moments were even later than that.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Yeah, TNG was one of those shows that took a minute to find itself. I'm not sure that show wouldn't get canceled after its first season today. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was like that, too. Both of those shows are among my all-time favorites, but I didn't start watching either of them regularly until their 2nd seasons, and many of their best moments were even later than that.

These days it would be canceled for "Code of Honor" alone. Most of the 90s-era Trek shows took a few seasons to find their feet -- especially TNG and Voyager. The strength of SNW right out of the gate boggles my mind -- I think it helps to have such a strong ensemble cast. Anson Mount could easily dominate the show, but Ortegas and company have strong charisma of their own. Compare that to Disco, which is the Michael Burnam show, and Picard, which...well, has the singular virtue of featuring Patrick Stewart. I haven't made it far enough yet to encounter Jeri Ryan, though if I ever continue in the show she'll be the only reason.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

These days it would be canceled for "Code of Honor" alone. Most of the 90s-era Trek shows took a few seasons to find their feet -- especially TNG and Voyager. The strength of SNW right out of the gate boggles my mind -- I think it helps to have such a strong ensemble cast. Anson Mount could easily dominate the show, but Ortegas and company have strong charisma of their own. Compare that to Disco, which is the Michael Burnam show, and Picard, which...well, has the singular virtue of featuring Patrick Stewart. I haven't made it far enough yet to encounter Jeri Ryan, though if I ever continue in the show she'll be the only reason.

I must be the only person on the planet who likes "Angel One". Riker is made to look like an idiot (which is fine by me, as I'm not a Riker fan - take a look at my sig at TrekBBS sometime), I do like Ramsey, and the actress who plays his wife used to be on Knight Rider.

But yeah, the show didn't really grow up until "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Family" (the sequel in which Picard goes home to France and we meet Worf's human foster parents).

Voyager had some good stuff in the first 3 seasons, with the time travel one and some of the Paris-centric ones (that story arc that sneaked up on us). But the show only got really good after Kes left (I really don't like Kes).

As for Picard... that first episode with Jeri Ryan was the last episode I watched of that show, out of sheer disgust. Not with her, but with what happened to a different character (won't spoil it for you, but then again, it's something lots of people talk about anyway).

So nowadays I confine my Star Trek to fanfic and Greg Cox's tie-in novels. Oh, and fan films. I don't know how I missed seeing the one I mentioned recently, that has Uhura in the lead (gloriously played by Nichelle Nichols). I thought I'd seen all of the fan films produced by James Cawley, but this one slipped by.

 

[Arakhor]

Measure of a Man was probably the best early TNG episode (s2e9), but then season 3 also gave us Yesterday's Enterprise and  Sarek, to name just two.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Measure of a Man was probably the best early TNG episode (s2e9), but then season 3 also gave us Yesterday's Enterprise and  Sarek, to name just two.

Yesterday's Enterprise was my favorite, I think.

Some other favorites, in no particular order:

The Wounded - Chief O'Brien's former captain shows up, chasing Cardassians. A Cold War and Vietnam War parable.
Cause & Effect - A time-loop, well before Groundhog Day made it part of the zeitgeist.
Inner Light - Picard gets zapped by alien artifact and lives out the rest of his life on an alien planet, gets married, has kids and grandkids, lives to old age, dies in his bed with 3 generations of his family around him... and wakes up back on the Enterprise.
Disaster - The Poseidon Adventure in space. The Enterprise hits some kind of stellar phenomenon and is critically disabled, with the command crew scattered all over the ship, away from their usual posts. Troi is the ranking officer on the bridge; Worf has to manage an impromptu medical clinic and deliver a baby; Picard is stuck in an elevator with some kids (again, years before Jurassic Park did the same thing to Dr. Grant).
Remember Me - The crew start vanishing, one-by-one, and only Dr. Crusher remembers that they ever existed.
And any episode with K'Ehleyr. Suzi Plakson was awesome.