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All Things Star Trek

Discussion in 'Arts & Entertainment' started by hobbsyoyo, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    It's complicated. Looking at TOS and nuTrek there just have to be differences, for the same reasons that there have to be differences between TNG and this Picard show. Viewers in the 1960s could look at a depiction of a 23rd century starship with consoles decorated with Christmas tree bulbs and see "futuristic." Viewers in 2020 just can't see it that way. We may make a good effort when we watch TOS episodes, with that nostalgia helping to quell the disbelief, but in a recently made movie it would never work. So a lot of the design changes, like them or not, are simply necessary.
     
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  2. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Enterprise did an amazing job of reverse engineering tech from TOS while updating the design ascetic so it had a futuristic appearance. All previous ST shows also respected design elements from TOS when they were introduced as part of the story. It's also easier to accept the changes from TOS to the TNG era since there's 100 years in between.

    In any event, I'm not really talking about the '60's show at all. I'm talking about design elements that have remained fairly consistent across 21 seasons (TNG to Voyager, 25 if you count Enterprise) being changed for no other reason than to bring it in-line with the Abrams movies. I mean the showrunners for Discovery and now Picard have even admitted as much. Suddenly, Romulans look different, phasers fire different, the jump to warp is different, the consoles/controls are different, and the star field outside a ship is different and looks like SW hyperspace, etc. I could accept some changes since it's been 20 years since Nemesis, but no, the design changes weren't all necessary.
     
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  3. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    That hundred years difference does make it easy to accept changes between TOS and TNG. It's when you don't have that hundred years that things get dicey. nuTrek starts on a ship that technically predates the Enterprise, but if they made that ship look like a technical predecessor to the Christmas tree light infested Enterprise as depicted in the 1960s TV show that movie bombs. I think in making something new that is set in (basically) the same time window as TNG, or probably more accurately Voyager, the makers of this Picard have some difficult choices to make. The Trek fan purists, on the one hand, will mourn the loss of every Christmas tree light that looked "futuristic" twenty years ago in real time. But on the other hand people who watched Voyager happily enough, and the various other incarnations of Star Trek before it, and even watched the various movies, but have never felt the inclination to even watch a re-run since, much less pore over them frame by frame, just want a good thing they can watch and say "yeah, that looks futuristic enough, cool."

    Both those people are "Star Trek fans" that are critical target audience...but I'm guessing the various studio and creative people think there are a whole lot more of the latter than the former.
     
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  4. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Even the "streaky stars" effect in Enterprise would have been better than the big glowing mess we had in the last episode of Picard. As I said, that's Star Wars, not Star Trek.
     
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  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Maybe, but the streaky stars effect was always ridiculous and in 2020 a far larger slice of the audience knows it's ridiculous and may not be willing to just go along. Hard choice.
     
  6. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Finally got around to watching the fourth episode. A clear improvement over the third, but still kind of... eh.

    It's not bad. I just don't find it especially interesting. I try to keep in mind that the first season of a Star Trek show is usually bad, and that by this metric it's actually doing well, but this is also a generation of much higher production costs where having the "trial season" just doesn't work for the longevity of a show.

    Still, it's good enough to keep watching. There was nothing egregious in the latest episode that would be off-putting for a traditionalist, I think.

    Spoiler :
    Romulan warrior nuns? Well, alright. Why not.
     
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  7. Blake00

    Blake00 Prince Supporter

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    Yeah it's just little tiny annoying things here and there.. but nothing bad.. definitely not a bad show.. still enjoying it and looking forward to more eps. Discovery had me really pissed off within the first few eps but that hasn't happened here.

    I'm still seeing these continuing polarizing themes across of lot of Picard conversations where you've got lots of people complaining that its too slow and there's too much exposition and then lots of other people saying it's too fast, there's not enough explanation and they don't understand what's happening haha. Completely opposite opinions from so many people lol, so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't change the formula haha.

    Personally I'm in the middle.. I think they should have got off earth in ep 3 not 4 and like I said earlier I still think ep1 & 2 should have just been delivered as a double ep pilot like the good old days. However I'm still pretty happy with the pacing and I accept that pretty much anything I don't understand right now is likely a plot element that will reveal itself in due time!
     
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  8. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    Both can be true. The plot is slow and plodding, but the exposition is too dense and rushed. Not a good combination imo.

    The difference with Picard and by extension Discovery is that unlike previous ST series, these are only available to watch via a paid streaming service. If I'm paying for something, and let's be honest there's not much else on CBS All Access, I'm going to have high expectations. I had high hopes for Picard initially, but between the production interviews and the show itself, I've been sorely disappointed. I still want to see how Seven is handled so I'll stick around for all 10 episodes. Past that I'll likely drop my sub for the second time.
     
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  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Well the Picard ad banner at the bottom of my screen right now quotes Rolling Stone as saying "... genuinely thrilling..." with no context for the phrase, plus ellipses before AND after the phrase... as-in for all I know, the actual full quote could be "Seeing Data again after all these years was genuinely thrilling, but unfortunately not enough to overcome what is ultimately a poor product overall." :lol:
     
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  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    I think the exposition is largely okay. They're just facing a big problem where they're introducing an avalanche of new information that needs to be contrasted against information we already know, seeing where it differs, and then trying to decide if the new is any better than the old. The Zhat Vash thing, in particular, stretches patience, because many people know it's an unnecessary twist/inclusion. Even the writers threw it out the window in Episode 4, referring to them as the Tal Shiar in dialogue (not really a spoiler, I think). So every single pause where we have to pontificate over the Zhat Vash kind of feels... pointless, since in practice they are indistinguishable from the Tal Shiar, both out-of-universe and within the story itself. Think of how much time could be spent on other things if everything Zhat Vash was just redirected into being the Tal Shiar, an establishment we're already familiar with.

    You also have to fill in the blanks of Picard's past (our future), and the blanks surrounding Starfleet becoming quasi-dystopian. That's not something we can simply take at face value. We need to be either told or shown these things, and we're getting both. Redundant? Maybe, but I think it works. This is actually not something I can fault the show for.

    In general, I think the greatest obstacle is sterility. Discovery went for grit, but it was a sterile grit. Picard is going for whimsical and deep, but it's a sterile whimsy and depth. Star Trek lends itself well to storytelling and character interactions, but this is difficult when the backdrop feels fabricated. No amount of description or careful structure can make up for sterility. The sterility also makes it difficult to internalize what we're being told -- for example, I'm finding it tough to really remember anything surrounding the Borg so far, simply because the presentation of that part of the story is so flash-in-the-pan constructed. The content isn't boring, and I'm certain it could be quite interesting, but it's not rooted in anything meaningful. You can counter sterility, to an extent, with focus, but Picard is telling us two stories at the same time. It's fighting a losing battle.
     
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  11. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I like Picard so far. My biggest bone to pick is that they could have done a much better job of making the universe look more like Star Trek. Other than the old school warbird that showed up for a minute, none of the ships, costumes or technology really feel like they quite fit in the Star Trek universe. I love how they've updated the technology so that things feel less dated, but at the same time they're just needlessly changing stuff. At one point someone referred to the holodeck as the holomatrix and it kind of irked me. I know it's the most trivial thing to pick on but it just underlines the shift in aesthetic in the show relative to the rest of the universe. I have not seen Discovery but I'm pretty sure the ships in it at least look like Federation ships. I know Picard's ship isn't a standard Federation vessel but still, the aesthetic is off.

    I agree with Synsensa that they're needlessly complicating the plot and I also raised my eyebrows when the Zhat Vash were introduced because they were basically just the Tal Shiar only they especially hate androids for some reason.

    I think they're doing a good job of getting to how the Federation became dystopian and the Android mysteries are backstory vis a vis Mars is really cool. I thought that a dystopian Federation would irk me but it actually hasn't, I just wish they'd make it look more like Star Trek.

    I stayed at a house with a CBS All Access subscription so I was able to catch up on this but won't be able to see the rest until they're out on DVD. :(

    I tried to watch Discovery but the app kept crashing every time I started the first episode. :(
     
  12. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    So I hate all the changes too but I don't think they really have much to do directly with the Abrams movies to be honest. There is a bit of his aesthetic in these recent changes, but overall his movies did a decent job of remaining Star Trek in feel. This show, not so much.

    Did the Abrams trek movies have a star wars type warp field? I don't recall.
     
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  13. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    The showrunners of both shows did convey in interviews that that was their intention, one reason being that they didn't want to confuse the audience with differing design aesthetics. Whatever that means.
    :yup:



    There's always been some variation in the warp effects across the the pre-Abrams' movies and the Berman-era TV shows, but they were basically all similar. Abrams drastically changed this to a SW Hyperspace tunnel-like effect, which influenced the following two movies, Discovery, & now Picard. This effect really appears to be a derivative of the effect used for the Transwarp Conduits or Quantum Slipstreams in Voyager. It's my understanding that at the time of Picard many Starfleet ships have been outfitted with Quantum Slipstream Drives, but it doesn't explain why regular warp speeds now have that Slipstream effect.
     
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  14. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Do they at least say this anywhere in the show? That would make me feel better about the change in effect.
     
  15. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    No, it's basically only been mentioned in the comics, novels, and STO. I'm also not too familiar with how much the ST expanded universe stuff is considered canon so I guess take it as you will. For example, in the Picard prequel comic Countdown, Admiral Picard is commanding the USS Verity while evacuating Romulans. The Verity is an Odyssey-class starship, which according to STO is equipped with a Quantum Drive.
     
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  16. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Oh so they're doing the Star Wars thing where they now expect you to follow all the extended universe stuff to understand what's going on in the main series. Cool, I can't wait for them to eventually throw out all the extended universe stuff, that worked great for Star Wars fans.
     
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  17. NinjaCow64

    NinjaCow64 The Continuation of the Dream Supporter

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    lol CFC unsubscribed me from this thread CLASSIC!

    I was enjoying Picard until this episode. Very impressed and annoyed that they managed to fudge up 7’s arc like that.

    Spoiler :
    Icheb deserved better than getting tortured to death and I’m not sure I can ever forgive this show for doing that to him.


    Picard might actually be my least favourite Star Trek now. Discovery was stupid but this is actively malicious and vindictive. Not even sure NuTrek was quite this awful. I would be swearing a lot now if this wasn’t CFC.
     
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  18. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    ... You're making me want to watch the latest episode tonight instead of tomorrow, just to see if it really is that bad. :lol:
     
  19. Imaus

    Imaus Prince

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    DIS does? Barely, I'll say. Continues the 'EVERYTHING IS A SAUCER' from Abrams, but also makes it blockier....

     
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  20. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I mean 'everything is a saucer' is 90% of federation capital ship design so I don't care if they took liberties with it.

    Also: awesome poster!
    The discovery looks like the enterprise and a Klingon battelcruiser had a baby.

    Edit: Oh episode 5 is out, and now I have to leave as well. :sad:
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020

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