All Things Star Wars

[Timsup2nothin]

So I'll put the question to you: if Star Wars movies are so predictable, why aren't any of the Star Wars fans here making the same prediction as I am about the plot of IX?

Gori, we are talking about people who have adopted "Obviously, I disagree" as a mantra. They aren't making the same prediction as you specifically because someone else made it. These people couldn't come to an agreement on what color C3P0 is.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I don't believe that. I have taken all my interlocutors as operating in perfectly good faith and reporting their own earnest expectations for the coming movie.*

I know them from other threads. They don't adopt positions just to be contrarian, or avoid them because someone else thought of something first.

I mean, I can kinda see some people maybe envying me the brilliance of my Plagueis/Snoke intuition, and being begrudging in their approbation just because they didn't think of that one first. That one sews up the whole trilogy-of-trilogies!

The "unsurprisingly, I disagree" is just an in joke. I was the first to adopt it, but I wouldn't dream of using it except in reference to points on which I genuinely disagree. It's kind of self deprecating: "You won't be surprised to learn that--me being the kind of person I am--I disagree." Like that.

*because, again, if they would just share that first insight, we could have a totes cool thread where we collectively worked out the entire plot--nay, entire script--of IX.

 

[Takhisis]

Unsurprisingly*, I disagree with your post, Gori, and I must explain why. You're stating that we cannot have that totes cool thread. We can. As long as you operate knowing that we're only pretending to take your initial premise as valid.


*not ‘OBVIOUSLY’, Tim!

 

[Gori the Grey]

Nah, that wouldn't be totes cool at all. That would be totes uncool.

 

[Takhisis]

I disagree. I'm totally game for a thread in which, for the purposes of the thread only, we assume that your premise is valid.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Obviously, I am in favor.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Nah, it has to be with the genuinely like-minded. The spirit of it is, "I can see where this thing is going. In fact, I can see so clearly where this thing is going that I could write the script ahead of time."

It'd only be fun if the first of those sentences were sincere, not just entertained as a hypothetical.

Edit: I mean, I'll give it some thought. When I thought the idea was cool, I thought it was so cool that I was really disappointed that I couldn't get the first inch of it. So maybe I'll agree to your proposition. But it really did presuppose that others were going to see that first bit of it the way I did.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Unsurprisingly, I (and Sommer) disagree.

That could mean two very different things I think I know which, but I'll just point out that as worded it has an alternate interpretation.

my theory can't be counted as "common knowledge" or "stuff everyone else has already thought of."

Untrue. The Ben Solo and Rey are siblings and/or cousins and/or related theory is and has been pretty popular among Star Wars fans. The non-canon, but well known Jacen and Jaina Solo storyline being such obvious low-hanging inspiration for such an expectation for so many of us. I myself found it plausible after the first film, despite not even being all that into the EU stuff... I was still well aware of the Solo twins and the vague nod to them that Rey and Ben seemed to be. But echoing you (and @Timsup2nothin 's) point about predictability, I think that to any fan, the siblings/cousins/whatever thing was an obvious direction they could have gone even if they had no awareness whatsoever of Jacen and Jaina. Sure there were some issues that would have to be addressed, like how could they have abandoned her, how could they not know about her, etc., but I have absolute faith in Star Wars storytellers' ability to just plow through stuff like that with some clever (or not so clever) contrivance.

So Gori, for my part I'm sorry that I apparently didn't make it clear to you that I absolutely see the obvious long odds in favor of the "surprise! Rey and Ren" are related!" theory, especially just looking at the first movie. Its just that the second film leaned so hard into subverting every expectation, and doing so in such a final, clear and unambiguous way, that the only way I can see the siblings thing coming back is if the subversion itself is used precisely as misdirection to throw fans off what was such an obvious Star Wars trope. Which brings up a more interesting question for me... one we may never get a straight answer on. If the Abrams movie makes them siblings will it be part of some master plan whereby the subversion was always intended as misdirection... or will it be an Abrams revision whereby Johnson really intended to squash the siblings storyline but Abrams decides to use the misdirection of the subversion to his advantage? Maybe they come out in the end saying "Oh yeah we totally planned it like that"... If they do that will you praise them as genius, brilliant, master-storyteller gods, like so many genuflecting Ewoks? Or will you "meh", and and handwaive their storyline as totally predictable tripe that you always knew was coming from a mile away?

As I'm sure you can tell by now... I ask because you seem to be leaning heavily towards the "subversion was misdirection as part of a master plan to make them siblings from the start" position. Now you are suggesting that we should be prepared to praise your brilliance for intuiting just such a storyline... but does that not lend credence to the brilliance of EP VIII? I mean you can't have it both ways right? EP VIII can't simultaneously be a clunky storytelling mess/failure, whatever AND have such a clear storytelling masterplan that you are brilliant for figuring out, can it? And even on the other hand... if you're wrong... don't they get brilliance points for actually surprising you for a change?

Hmmmm. A cogent argument. However, to be really effective one must build this on the assumption "Star Wars movies are not pretty much predictable, almost to the point of trite." I find little evidence that such an assumption is warranted.

One of the things that I loved about EP VIII was precisely how hard the film worked to not be so predictable. It was a really cool and refreshing change from what I'd been used to.

Gori, we are talking about people who have adopted "Obviously, I disagree" as a mantra. They aren't making the same prediction as you specifically because someone else made it. These people couldn't come to an agreement on what color C3P0 is.

He's gold and silver.

 

[JohannaK]

If Rey and Ben turned out to be brothers I would be morally and intellectually obligated to cease watching further Star Wars installments.

It was verily something obvious to do, and after they unambiguously denied it, for them to go back on it again would be insulting to me and to the collective intelligence of humanity.

I am open to, nay, I am resignated to some form of cosmic connection with OT characters, but I sure hope they dont go through with it. Anakin came from nowhere after all. Why the hell should Rey not?

 

[Gori the Grey]

All right, Sommer, so your post has clarified some things, and I'll try to build on that.

First, this

the only way I can see the siblings thing coming back is if the subversion itself is used precisely as misdirection to throw fans off what was such an obvious Star Wars trope.

is exactly what I think is going on. IX is going to wrap things up in the standard SW fashion: good family members have rescued their temporarily bad family members from the dark side. Therefore the very role of VIII is to throw Star Wars fans off that expectation so that it can come as a "surprise" in IX. (A disappointing "surprise," I get it, Sommer and JK.)

You say I can't have it both ways re: VIII: that it's setting up this development, but that it's a mess as a movie. But my guess as to where the plot is going is separate from my experience of how Johnson managed story-telling in a filmic medium. My criticisms with VIII are mostly with how the co-plots not associated with Ren-Rey are handled in terms of film story telling. (And they come with a huge "granted," by the way, that the middle film is by far the toughest to pull off.) I don't know what Finn and Rose are doing traipsing around inside and outside of the casino and in its prison: what would constitute success or failure for them on their mission isn't clearly and steadily held in view. Their mission is urgent and they have to stay secret but they have time to gaze out from an observation deck on the abuse of those horse-racing critters. It's the management of pacing, mostly, a joltiness to everything. Poe makes what has to be the biggest decision of his life, to mutiny against his comrades when they're in desperate straights; we don't get to see him preparing for doing such a monumental thing; then right after he does: "'sall good," on all sides. I don't have to rehearse it, but it's the stuff in the director's control, not the stuff in the story-tellers' purview.

I don't demand praise for my brilliance in discerning Ren-Rey, nor will I think it a brilliant story, if IX plays out as I'm predicting; it will just be a Star Warsish story. It wouldn't surprise me if fans outside of this site are anticipating the progression from VIII to IX in the way I am, and the way that will disappoint you if it comes to fruition. My experience is wholly within the context of this site where I've met noting but resistance to my sense of how the story is likely to develop. You clarify a bit with your opening comment about the "long odds" as you see them. And I've been aware that there are two levels to our discussion: what is likely to happen, and what we would like to see happen. But, yes, in your replies, you have seemed so committed to what you would like to see happen that I have taken it as opposition to my (again, as I thought, unobjectionable and totally non-brilliant) sense of what is likely to happen.

Are fans elsewhere floating my Snoke/Plagueis theory? That's the one I'm especially proud of, since it would tie up the whole trilogy of trilogies.

By the way, if I prove right about that, I think it will be the means by which the franchise reconciles fans like yourself to the Ren-Rey predictability. The "well I didn't see that whole Snoke thing coming" will be the surprise surprise, if I can put it that way, that will then warrant and salvage the disappointing "surprise."

 

[Sommerswerd]

This guy gets it. How 'bout a story arc that goes back and explains that one huge mystery that was raised in I but has never been addressed: the fatherless conception of Anakin?

But they've already addressed it... it's just that your mental immune system has rightfully rejected and suppressed it.

Oh no... now it's in my mind *ulp*

Everyone who goes to see the movie will know instantly whether I was correct or not, and come ridicule me mercilessly if I wasn't.

That was never going to happen, not from me anyway.

As I've said... the siblings route was always a possibility and to agree with your point... the most obvious route they could have possibly taken. No reason to mock you for pointing out the obvious.

Plus I like you, and enjoy your theories. So mocking you for being incorrect would be counterproductive, since I'm always interested to hear what you think... Plus that's just rude.

All I ask is that if I'm right, you worship me with the fervor the ewoks manifested for C3P0.

Also not gonna happen... for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Gori the Grey]

We've crossposted. Stuff in my long post above yours speaks to some of your post above.

 

[Sommerswerd]

(A disappointing "surprise," I get it, Sommer and JK.)

For me it not so much about it being "disappointing" as much as it is cliché and predictable. I fully expect that I will enjoy IX regardless of how things shake out. What I'm most excited about is the possibility that IX redeems VIII in the minds of fans like you who were hard on it. I'm hoping that IX makes you guys feel about VIII the way I already feel about it.

Are fans elsewhere floating my Snoke/Plagueis theory? That's the one I'm especially proud of, since it would tie up the whole trilogy of trilogies.

Yes, but I haven't felt the need to watch any of their videos or read their articles/posts since I can just hear it from you

By the way, if I prove right about that, I think it will be the means by which the franchise reconciles fans like yourself to the Ren-Rey predictability. The "well I didn't see that whole Snoke thing coming" will be the surprise surprise, if I can put it that way, that will then warrant and salvage the disappointing "surprise."

Again, I don't need any reconciling. My Star Wars love is unconditional . I've even made peace with EP 1 as a really good children's movie, with Star Wars as a backdrop, (like if Home Alone took place on the Death Star), which instantly turns it from zero to hero.

The Plagueis-Snoke thing already makes sense, given Palpatine's observation that Plagueis could stop death. But its gonna burn some precious screen time to introduce such a major character that so many people will have zero familiarity with. Plus then after you introduce this uber-Sith, invincible-greatest-dark-side-user-who-ever-lived... then what? Rey kills him? Ben kills him...again? Poe jumps in a X-wing and blows him up? Rose talks him to death? Introducing Plagueis is hardcore fanservice... I just don't know where they would go with it... A sequel-sequel when they fail to kill him?

Something else that bugs me a little... Plagueis is known as a master manipulator of certain microscopic force organisms, whose name I won't say so I don't puke all over myself. Won't introducing him into the story necessitate a ton of rehashing that topic? *ulp*, *heave*

 

[BenitoChavez]

I'm hoping that IX makes you guys feel about VIII the way I already feel about it.

Unless they make getting green tinted milk from an alien cow/elphant's udder a central plot point of IX I don't see that happening.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Ben kills him...again?

Ben really kills him, which can happen (in some way that the film establishes) only at the cost of his own life: i.e. he makes a heroic self-sacrifice that redeems him from having killed Han.

I think even more casual fans will remember the "there was no father" moment from I and the Emporer's speech to Anakin about Plagueis from III and get back up to speed on this figure pretty quickly.

 

[Takhisis]

That could mean two very different things I think I know which, but I'll just point out that as worded it has an alternate interpretation.

Well, you are a lawyer.

He's gold and silver.

Unsurprisingly, I disagree. Isn't he gold and red?

If Rey and Ben turned out to be brothers I would be morally and intellectually obligated to cease watching further Star Wars installments.

It was verily something obvious to do, and after they unambiguously denied it, for them to go back on it again would be insulting to me and to the collective intelligence of humanity.

I am open to, nay, I am resignated to some form of cosmic connection with OT characters, but I sure hope they dont go through with it. Anakin came from nowhere after all. Why the hell should Rey not?

Unsurprisingly, I agree. It'd be better if Rey was really just an orphan born to two random people instead of simply the child of destiny born to a family of children of destiny.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Unsurprisingly, I disagree. Isn't he gold and red?

Unsurprisingly, that's Iron Man. C3PO is brass and yellow.

 

[Takhisis]

Unsurprisingly, I disagree, and TVTropes is here to rescue me.

 

[Takhisis]

I see you've woken up, Laurana.

 

[r16]

not brother and sister , as there is still so much stuff about the revelations of VI . And ı also object with Anakin coming out of nowhere , let alone an immaculate conception . It's just marketing to the Jedi Council .

easily correctable as there's so much to clean before anything Disney does becomes canon .