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All things Star Wars

Discussion in 'Arts & Entertainment' started by EgonSpengler, Aug 15, 2014.

?

Sith or Jedi?

  1. Sith

    29 vote(s)
    42.6%
  2. Jedi

    39 vote(s)
    57.4%
  1. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    But that's how "stray dialogue" works! You construct some "T-16" and it must be something that gave Luke piloting skills. So now you have an explanation for Luke's piloting skills!
     
  2. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Or... OR! You could have had Rey do a 10 (or 30 depending on whether you count all the setup) minute podracing scene to "establish her piloting skillz" :ack:

    Or you could have her snatch a random part off the Falcon's bridge and triumphantly declare "I bypassed the compressor!", and say to yourself... Ok this lady knows her stuff... suspend your disbelief and move on...

    On some level it all boils down to whether you like the movie or not on a conscious/subconscious level. Anyone who watches "CinemaSins", AKA "Everything Wrong With" on YouTube and/or "CinemaWins" AKA "Everything Great About" knows that for any given movie you can find tons wrong with it and tons right with it... you focus on the former or that latter depending primarily on whether you are trying to justify your dislike or like, respectively.
     
  3. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Of course, the purpose of the podrace isn't primarily to establish Anakin's piloting skillz--it's to have a (Ben Hur like) chariot race as a set piece showing off your cool new CGI capabilities. Our discussion from a few pages back about how Lucas loved old movies and couldn't resist that lure of CGI giving him the opportunity to do his space-version of those old movies.

    Regarding this:

    unsurprisingly, I disagree.

    This kind of thing can be over done, like the podrace, or underdone, like Rey's piloting skillz, or done exactly right, like Luke's piloting skillz. But one doesn't adduce it, after the fact, as a rationale for liking or not liking a movie. It is why you like or don't like a particular movie.

    Anyway . . . the real reason that Rey has inexplicable piloting skillz is so that when she turns out to be the daughter of a famous, skilled space-ship pilot, it'll suddenly "all make sense."
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  4. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    Luke's piloting abilities are as much underdone as Rey's. That she has technical know-how qualifies her to be a mechanic, not a pilot. Which of course is totally a parallel to Anakin's junkyard slave/tech genius background.

    If Finn asked when they jump in the Falcon and she said 'I've only flown in a defective simulator' that both gives you a plausible explanation and heightens the tension because you can't be sure she'll just crash and someone else will have to rescue them. But then it would also be somewhat stock dialogue and maybe not something she'd want to admit.
     
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  5. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    I think there's more for Luke. He and his family both regard him as a viable candidate for "the Academy" (in fact regard his acceptance as pretty much a given) which could easily be assumed to involve some pre-established piloting skills. Then the T-16 reference, the confidence with which he assumes it's applicable to an X-wing attacking a Death Star.

    Does his winning all the drag races back in Backwardsville mean he'll automatically be able to drive a Formula-1 when the chance comes his way? No. But we're not surprised he can do it, either.
     
  6. Takhisis

    Takhisis excuse me

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    This could have worked if the dialogue had been written properly and their facial expressions not obscured by lens flares.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Unsurprisingly, I disagree...

    There isn't any more for Luke. Han Solo was "accepted" into "The Academy" quite literally off the street, in the middle of him running from gangsters, without so much as a pre established last name :lol: let alone any "pre established piloting skills". The officer who signed Han up gave less than a squeeze, who he was or what skills he had, and even made up a name for him...on the spot... because "The Academy" takes anybody.

    And his quip about the bullseye'ing womprats was more about establishing how overconfident and clueless he was in the face of impossible odds. Remember... its wasn't his "piloting skills" that allowed him to "bullseye the womprat" on the Death Star... it was magic, ie The Force, via the ghost of Obi Wan guiding him. The Force, not Luke's piloting skills... made what Higgins, a presumably experienced fighter pilot, knew was impossible... possible.

    Darth Vader
    the "best pilot in the galaxy" was inexplicably incapable of shooting Luke down because of... plot armor... er um, I mean... quote... "The Force is strong with this one" :lol: but all of a sudden, "cause the Force iz too stronk with dis one" is an inadequate justification for Rey's exploits?? Please...

    Like I said... the like or dislike comes first... based on various subconscious, emotional, primal, and intangible factors... then come the justifications where we try to intellectualize our emotional responses.

     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Quite apart from Luke wanting to go to the Academy, and Owen darkly opining about Luke's impetuousness resembling his father's, we get another, pretty good example in the Cantina, at the end of Act 1:

    Luke: "Fifteen thousand? We could buy our own ship for that!"
    Han: "And who's gonna fly her, kid — you?"
    Luke: "You bet I could! I'm a pretty fair pilot myself!"

    Then he helps Han fight off the TIEs while they're escaping from the Death Star (end of Act 2), so we know he's a decent shot as well. Then, in the hangar, after the briefing-room scene/T-16 boast, something along these lines:

    Wingleader: "You gonna be OK in one of these [X-wings]?"
    Luke: "Yeah, I think so"
    Biggs: "Don't worry about him, Luke's the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territory"

    OK, maybe not a ringing endorsement (it's a relative measure, after all!), but certainly third-party confirmation of Luke's ability, from someone who's grown up with him. So (long) before he even gets into an X-wing, we already know Luke (at least thinks he) can fly — and then he demonstrates that by first not getting himself killed during the initial approach to the Death Star (unlike a lot of the other, presumably more experienced combat pilots), and then by blowing it up himself when no-one else could.

    So with Luke there's first-act foreshadowing, second-act support and third-act payoff. TFA never gives the audience anything like as much information about Rey, she just gets into the MF, and pow, suddenly she's a hotshot pilot, basically just because the plot requires it at that point, to get her and Finn off Jakku (and this is still in Act 1, remember!). So yeah, I'd certainly call that poor/lazy scripting, especially compared to the original.

    Though obviously we can only go on what's actually shown on-screen, I also read somewhere that the T-16 model which we see Luke playing with in the workshop, was actually the prop made for a planned scene showing Luke racing in Beggar's Canyon on Tatooine, which either never got filmed, or was filmed and then cut. (There were definitely some scenes filmed of Luke hanging out with Biggs and friends in Anchorhead, that got cut for being too 50s-teen-movie/ American Graffiti).
     
  9. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    They got cut for dragging out the start of the movie and making it worse. It is part of why everyone at Lucas' screening for his director friends was dismayed at how terrible it was.
     
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  10. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    But none of this constitutes an explanation of how Luke can fly an X-wing. It's just a characters standing around reporting that he can. And, again, for narrative purposes, this is more than sufficient. None of the characters stop to explain the specifics of how and when a scruffy nineteen year-old farm boy became a pretty fair pilot, and they don't need to, because the fact has already been established. They don't stop to explain it, because it doesn't matter.

    I do agree, New Hope establishes this more fully, and more convincingly, partly because they had more space to do so, and partly because the writing in Force Awakens simply isn't as tight or efficient as in New Hope. As I suggested, the film relies on the audiences willingness to a Star Wars protagonist is a capable pilot, relies on New Hope having already done this work. But, again, the problem is not that they forget to mention a flight-simulator. That's not even a problem: including this would be a band-aid over a gap in character-building, it would not actually constitute character-building, as the examples you give do. So the criticism that the script fails to explain all this is not in fact a criticism at all: it's just a nit-pick.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  11. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    True, and admittedly the (sorta) canon explanation is never given in any of the OT movies (although it is -- kinda sorta -- implicit from the quoted conversations): in the SW universe, single-crewman aircraft/spacecraft cockpits are all deliberately designed to look/feel similar, precisely so that pilots can transfer their l337-skillz more easily between craft-types*.

    FWIW, even though the pod-race did establish his high-speed reaction creds, I also think that 10-yr-old Anakin flying a Naboo starfighter (even with Artoo's help!) in the finale of Ep.I is/was quite as ridiculous** as Rey flying the MF in Ep.VII.

    *Source: LucasArts Star Wars X-Wing game manual (publ. 1993)
    **And blatantly only included to tie in with Obi-Wan's original line in ANH about how Anakin was "...already a great pilot when I first met him", even though the pod-race had -- kinda sorta -- shown that already, narratively speaking.

    Space how? Certainly not by total running-time... ;)

    ANH: 121 minutes
    TFA: 135 minutes
     
  12. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    I think you'll find there is markedly less time between Rey first appearing on-screening and her jumping into the MF than between Luke first appearing and his jumping into an X-Wing.
     
  13. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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  14. Thorvald of Lym

    Thorvald of Lym A Little Sketchy

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    Age of Skywalker?

    AoS?

    oh god it's Sigmar all over again
     
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  15. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Ghost Agent

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    I take it it’s going to be a bad omen.
     
  16. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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  18. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Damn I thought that was what the radio said this morning, but I hoped that I'd misheard/mistranslated. Still, I guess that would explain why the DJ then invited listeners to phone in their best Chewie impressions (he called the game "Chew-ie, or not chew-ie?")

    RIP.
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Unsurprisingly, GoG has put all Star Wars games on sale. May the Fourth be with your game budget.
     
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  20. Takhisis

    Takhisis excuse me

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    Today I found out that a local politician died and also that Peter Mayhew had died. One has a tangible effect on the political trainwreck of a failing state I live in, the other portrayed one of my favourite characters in all of cinema. Guess which one actually made me sad.
     
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