All Things Star Wars

[Thorvald of Lym]

I would say it draws far more from adventure pulp novels, like Conan or Barsoom, than cyberpunk.
Indeed, Star Wars feels a lot like Barsoom crossed with an Introduction of Eastern Philosophy class. Star Wars, particularly the early drafts of Star Wars, feels like Lucas took the Barsoom books, ran it through the 'adapt-o-tron', and combined it with the films of Akira Kurosawa.

Given Star Wars originated as Flash Gordon with the serial filed off, which was itself John Carter of Mars with the serial filed off, this makes sense.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

[Ninja'd]

It's what he came up with when he couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon.

 

[Takhisis]

Given Star Wars originated as Flash Gordon with the serial filed off, which was itself John Carter of Mars with the serial filed off, this makes sense.

And John Carter of Mars was kindof Tarzan but in space, so Luke having to train in a jungle planet gets ever more delicious.

 

[Ajidica]

And John Carter of Mars was kindof Tarzan but in space, so Luke having to train in a jungle planet gets ever more delicious.

Try the other way around! A Princess of Mars was first serialized in February 1912, Tarzan of the Jungle came out in June 1912.
(I would also dispute that Tarzan had that much to do with the Barsoom books. Lucas must have been familiar with the Barsoom books, and clearly enjoyed the 'barbaric decadence' vibes of Barsoom. I swear the entire Tatooine scene in Return of the Jedi is a big love letter to Barsoom.

Airship/air barge? Check!
Princess wearing only what PG rating demands? Check!
Overly complex plan where everything falls into place just so? Check!
Yes And... Peril?* Check!

*This is a major trope used by Burroughs and a number of other pulp authors I've read. The setting has a clear climax, despite the heroes successes, they only succeed into more peril until everything gets resolved at the climax. They never succeed into less peril.

 

[Takhisis]

You forgot the ‘combat trapped in a pit with a mighty monster’ bit, also present in Barsoom books.

Also, I didn't say that John Carter was a remake of Tarzan in space. But it was co-made by a man who clearly had that ‘superior white Western man among savages’ thing in mind.

 

[Plotinus]

I'd say that Star Wars is influenced less by actual eastern philosophy or religion and more by Orientalist assumptions about Asia. Indeed the whole characterisation of Yoda as a tiny shrivelled wise mystic who lives in the wilderness and dispenses aphorisms in broken English is pretty problematic from start to finish, really.

 

[Ajidica]

Also, I didn't say that John Carter was a remake of Tarzan in space. But it was co-made by a man who clearly had that ‘superior white Western man among savages’ thing in mind.

I wouldn't push it that far, particularly for the John Carter novels. John Carter may be a brave and masterful swordsman, but he wins over his enemies and respect of his allies by treating them fairly and with respect. He wins over the Green Martians by treating them with respect and compassion. He wins over some of the Black Martians by, once again, treating them fairly and with respect. The only Martian race depicted uniformly negatively are the White Martians, who are either deceitful cowardly plotters, or a Wacky Wayside Tribe used by Burroughs to mock philosophical concepts he disagrees with*. (We never see enough of the Yellow Martians to get an opinion.)

Indeed, the books have a very strong undercurrent of racial and cultural tolerance - not mighty whitey in the desert. One of the lines from the second books sticks out "Though we were of three different races, and of two different worlds, none would have thought of abandoning the other." All the heroic characters are ones who overcome their cruelty, bigotry, and intolerance.
(Even the female characters tend to come out well. Sure, Dejah Thorris, the 'Princess of Mars' spends most her time captured, but she is also depicted as a passionate and charismatic speaker and a brilliant scientist. Later books feature Carter's daughters, Tara and Llana, who are depicted as brave and skills swordswomen.)
The books are hardly progressive by modern standards, but hold up far better than a lot of early pulp novels.

 

[EgonSpengler]

You forgot the ‘combat trapped in a pit with a mighty monster’ bit, also present in Barsoom books.

Also, I didn't say that John Carter was a remake of Tarzan in space. But it was co-made by a man who clearly had that ‘superior white Western man among savages’ thing in mind.

That's the "White savior" trope.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Moderator Action: Remember this is the Star Wars thread, not John Carter...

 

[Takhisis]

I'd say that Star Wars is influenced less by actual eastern philosophy or religion and more by Orientalist assumptions about Asia. Indeed the whole characterisation of Yoda as a tiny shrivelled wise mystic who lives in the wilderness and dispenses aphorisms in broken English is pretty problematic from start to finish, really.

Well, to a degree it does follow the usual ‘defeat an enemy with an evil samurai helmet’ and then the sequel has them finding an old hermit in the forest which is not just Li Pai Mei but also a sort of Merlin, both rolled into one.

(sidenote: Wise Old horsehockyashi) Edit: I'm trying to include a link to something with a Japanese name - the autocensor is insisting on not letting me post it)

I wouldn't push it that far, particularly for the John Carter novels. John Carter may be a brave and masterful swordsman, but he wins over his enemies and respect of his allies by treating them fairly and with respect. He wins over the Green Martians by treating them with respect and compassion. He wins over some of the Black Martians by, once again, treating them fairly and with respect. The only Martian race depicted uniformly negatively are the White Martians, who are either deceitful cowardly plotters, or a Wacky Wayside Tribe used by Burroughs to mock philosophical concepts he disagrees with*. (We never see enough of the Yellow Martians to get an opinion.)

Indeed, the books have a very strong undercurrent of racial and cultural tolerance - not mighty whitey in the desert. One of the lines from the second books sticks out "Though we were of three different races, and of two different worlds, none would have thought of abandoning the other." All the heroic characters are ones who overcome their cruelty, bigotry, and intolerance.
(Even the female characters tend to come out well. Sure, Dejah Thorris, the 'Princess of Mars' spends most her time captured, but she is also depicted as a passionate and charismatic speaker and a brilliant scientist. Later books feature Carter's daughters, Tara and Llana, who are depicted as brave and skills swordswomen.)
The books are hardly progressive by modern standards, but hold up far better than a lot of early pulp novels.

Just because John Carter is superior in terms of, uhm, spirit doesn't mean that he's still

Screw it, I left the post unsent to go eat something and the fuzz showed up.

 

[EvaDK]

I'd say that Star Wars is influenced less by actual eastern philosophy or religion and more by Orientalist assumptions about Asia. Indeed the whole characterisation of Yoda as a tiny shrivelled wise mystic who lives in the wilderness and dispenses aphorisms in broken English is pretty problematic from start to finish, really.

I reckon Lucas' idea with Yoda's appearance, is to underline what he attempts to teach Luke. That 'wars does not make one great' and to milk Luke's misguided expectations of Obi-Wan's master to be someone much grander and impressive, than a small green Muppet with floppy ears.

I consider Lucas' depiction of Yoda jumping around with his tiny lightsaber like a Gremlin on acid in Attack of the Clones to be a big misstep. Yoda imo should be above this; above having to use lightsabers to enforce his powers. He should have had a similar distaste for lightsabers, as Obi-Wan had with blasters. With Yoda, it's all about channeling the Force that exists within yourself.

 

[Takhisis]

I consider Lucas' depiction of Yoda jumping around with his tiny lightsaber like a Gremlin on acid in Attack of the Clones to be a big misstep. Yoda imo should be above this; above having to use lightsabers to enforce his powers. He should have had a similar distaste for lightsabers, as Obi-Wan had with blasters. With Yoda, it's all about channeling the Force that exists within yourself.

OTOH Yoda himself speaks of how the Dark Side has blinded all the Jedi; after the Clone Wars, we never see him even use a lightsabre* again.

*Arakhorian spelling

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, he matures a lot between the prequel stories and Empire. A person can do a lot of growing up in the years between 880 and 900.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I reckon Lucas' idea with Yoda's appearance, is to underline what he attempts to teach Luke. That 'wars does not make one great' and to milk Luke's misguided expectations of Obi-Wan's master to be someone much grander and impressive, than a small green Muppet with floppy ears.

When I heard that line as a kid, I took it for what it was at the time, just a clever turn of phrase that mocked Luke's pre-conception of what a Jedi should be... but of course after AotC the line takes on a deeper meaning... because Yoda actually was a "great warrior" who actually fought a "great war"... and lost... in spectacular fashion (as Luke very harshly and almost mockingly points out in TLJ). So when Yoda says "Wars not make one great", he knows what he's talking about and he's essentially making the point that for him, the "great war" he fought actually did exactly the opposite of making him great... it ruined him, destroyed his legacy, washed away his greatness and left him hiding in exile.

I consider Lucas' depiction of Yoda jumping around with his tiny lightsaber like a Gremlin on acid in Attack of the Clones to be a big misstep. Yoda imo should be above this; above having to use lightsabers to enforce his powers. He should have had a similar distaste for lightsabers, as Obi-Wan had with blasters. With Yoda, it's all about channeling the Force that exists within yourself.

I felt the same. Yoda's force powers battles with Palpatine seemed to be more in line with the image of Yoda I had in my mind. When he blocks, and absorbs Dooku's lightning into his bare hands (reminiscent of Vader blocking Han's blaster fire with his hands), I always felt that was a better display of what a Jedi master could do. The 2003 Tartakovsky 2D cartoon Clone Wars had, what I thought was better depictions of what a Jedi of Yoda's (or Mace Windu's) ability would do with a lightsaber... lightning fast, but almost nonchalant hand movements, effortlessly blocking all incoming blaster fire, barely moving any other part of his body. That exaggerated "Samurai-Jack"-like animation probably wouldn't translate well into live action though.

 

[Synobun]

I actually think Yoda's theatrics with the Force in AotC and RotS fit well with the overall point that the Jedi had fallen into decadent decay. It's the exact kind of frivolity they would partake in because they're too comfortable and too impressed with their own navels. Yoda wasn't apart from this decay; he was a key driver of it. He just had the fortune of surviving and realizing it in hindsight. Yoda had the capacity for a deeper, more meaningful approach to the Force, but he fell victim to hubris just as hard, if not harder, than the rest.

 

[Lexicus]

I reckon Lucas' idea with Yoda's appearance, is to underline what he attempts to teach Luke. That 'wars does not make one great' and to milk Luke's misguided expectations of Obi-Wan's master to be someone much grander and impressive, than a small green Muppet with floppy ears.

I consider Lucas' depiction of Yoda jumping around with his tiny lightsaber like a Gremlin on acid in Attack of the Clones to be a big misstep. Yoda imo should be above this; above having to use lightsabers to enforce his powers. He should have had a similar distaste for lightsabers, as Obi-Wan had with blasters. With Yoda, it's all about channeling the Force that exists within yourself.

I sort of agree but as others have pointed out I think it can be interpreted as character development. Yoda learned the lessons of the Clone Wars well.

So when Yoda says "Wars not make one great", he knows what he's talking about and he's essentially making the point that for him, the "great war" he fought actually did exactly the opposite of making him great... it ruined him, destroyed his legacy, washed away his greatness and left him hiding in exile.

I always interpreted it as more than that: as a literal statement that being great at war does not make one great, because the ability to do violence is not the measure of greatness. It is one of the best lines in the entire Star Wars franchise imo.

 

[Takhisis]

Speaking of Oriental characters, Yoda not using a lightsabre™ (or even having one? I don't remember him with one at all in the ROTJ or TESB) falls in squarely with the concept expressed by Jet Li's Nameless character in Hero: the swordsman who outgrows the need for the sword.

 

[Lexicus]

Speaking of Oriental characters, Yoda not using a lightsabre™ (or even having one? I don't remember him with one at all in the ROTJ or TESB) falls in squarely with the concept expressed by Jet Li's Nameless character in Hero: the swordsman who outgrows the need for the sword.

Yes, although in 3 we see he doesn't have his lightsaber because he lost it at the end of the duel with Palpatine and didn't have a chance to get it back.

 

[Takhisis]

Does he ever build a new one? I remember reading some comics that bridged the gap between Eps. 3 and 4 and some books that have since then been discontinued by Disney!Star Wars so I am not even sure anymore, but I *think* I've never seen Yoda with any weapons after his battle with Palpatine.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Does he ever build a new one? I remember reading some comics that bridged the gap between Eps. 3 and 4 and some books that have since then been discontinued by Disney!Star Wars so I am not even sure anymore, but I *think* I've never seen Yoda with any weapons after his battle with Palpatine.

It's kind of an interesting conundrum. Yoda's lightsaber, that he lost during his duel with Sidious, was recovered and destroyed along with several other Jedi lightsabers by Mas Amedda in the 2017 Darth Vader comic. But, then we have in the Complete Locations reference book a lightsaber clearly being shown in Yoda's Hut from TESB. Additionally, Luke also presents Yoda's saber to Grogu in TBoBF. Matt Martin from LFL Storygroup intimated on Twitter that Yoda likely had constructed multiple lightsabers over his life.

So while the details on the "how" aren't exactly spelled out, it's quite likely Yoda had constructed another lightsaber when in exile, which would explain how Luke ended up with it.