Alleged secret Syrian reactor

[skadistic]

Actually, Hezbollah has no incentive to try and deliberately endanger the civilian concentrations. Except to make Israel look bad and further its PR.After all, Hezbollah does need support from the local population to survive.

Yes and they get it by bribes like schools and hospitals and at the point of the gun. Like when it didn't allow civilians to flee during the war. Fear is a great incentive to cooperate.

 

[brennan]

Except to make Israel look bad and further its PR.

But, but, how could that make Israel look bad unless there's something immoral about the IDF killing civilians?

Actually, Hezbollah has no incentive to try and deliberately endanger the civilian concentrations. After all, Hezbollah does need support from the local population to survive.

I suspect the PR they get from IDF actions outweighs any bad feeling among the locals.

Yes and they get it by bribes like schools and hospitals and at the point of the gun. Like when it didn't allow civilians to flee during the war. Fear is a great incentive to cooperate.

Sorry, that's "schools and hospitals", yes? Those Bastards!

 

[Princeps]

Except to make Israel look bad and further its PR.

Ok. I'll take this as an unlikely conspiracy theory. Because, Hezbollah is basically an organization like a state, and needs public opinion to survive. Hezbollah is also partly a popular organization, it was born as a resistence organization against the savage Israeli occupation. Hezbollah would not be popular if it tried to deliberately risk civilians and its operations, but Hezbollah is popular in Lebanon.

. Like when it didn't allow civilians to flee during the war.

Straight from the IDF. Their words are meaningless.

Fear is a great incentive to cooperate.

Yeah, I suppose so, but it is not sustainable. They'd have a revolt on their hands if Hezbollah continued to disregard the civilian population and place them in peril, deliberately. Much of the serious study seems to indicate that they do not do this.

 

[Bamspeedy]

How about the 'Liberty City Seven' plot where a radical group conspired to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago. The case was so big Gonzales, like Ashcroft before him, went public with it. There was a big trial, and they were all... acquitted.

Only one was acquitted. The jury couldn't reach a unanimous decision on the guilt or innocence of the other 6 so it was a mistrial.....twice.

Or Jose Padilla, who John Ashcroft announced was plotting to explode a dirty bomb, over three years, that charge fell apart for lack of evidence, as did any evidence of connection to any actual terrorist plot and eventually Padilla was convicted of having bad thoughts.

Just having bad thoughts?

A jury convicted him of:
conspiracy to murder
conspiracy to materially aid terrorists
Providing material support to terrorists

Hmmm. Does this include the mentally unbalanced man who wanted to take down the brooklyn bridge... with a blowtorch?

Yeah, he was a little looney.....but he did personally meet KSM (although he later claimed it was for a book he was writing about Al Queda, the wiretapped calls says otherwise).

The blowtorch thing wasn't originally his idea.

Imagine how silly the 9/11 plot would have looked if the guys were caught before the hijacking. "ZOMG, the CIA is so ******** if they thought these goons can bring down the WTC with boxcutters!!!"

Your list of 'intelligence failures' is a nice list, but you needed to go back 40 years to get that 'long' list.

 

[skadistic]

Ok. I'll take this as an unlikely conspiracy theory.Or you could take it for what it is. You know the truth. Because, Hezbollah is basically an organization like a state, and needs public opinion to survive.No it doesn't. All it needs is guns and money from Iran. Hezbollah is also partly a popular organization,Because of its "humanitary" front. it was born as a resistence organization against the savage Israeli occupation. Hezbollah would not be popular if it tried to deliberately risk civilians and its operations, but Hezbollah is popular in Lebanon.Really/? all of it or just the south?



Straight from the IDF. Their words are meaningless.
Straight from the mouths of those who tried to leave. You know Lebanese.


Yeah, I suppose so, but it is not sustainable. Yeah because brutal despot dictators never last long......They'd have a revolt on their hands if Hezbollah continued to disregard the civilian population and place them in peril, deliberately. Yeah because it would be so easy to fight back against such a well armed and funded army.Much of the serious study seems to indicate that they do not do this.

What serious study is this exactly? What does this study say about hezbola placing rocket launchers in and around civilian structures to maximize civilian death when the IDF destroys them?

You lame attempt to make the terrorist organization look good is laughable.

 

[brennan]

You lame attempt to make the terrorist organization look good is laughable.

particularly when you've already pointed out that they provide schools and hospitals.

 

[Den Valdron]

No, I didn't really need to go back 40 years. I just picked whatever was off the top as far as greatest hits, without bothering to do any research. People have written entire books about the failures and problems with American intelligence, and any objective analyst will tell you that the track record has generally been far from exemplary. You gotta admit that Iraqi Wmd's, and blowing it on 9/11 would hit anyone's top ten list, internationally. And these are current failures, whose causes and origins may or may not have been addressed. Scepticism is warranted. Let them build up a track record of success, and then maybe we'll rely upon that record.

If you'd like to argue the constitutional issues involved in Mr. Padilla, go right ahead. Fact remains as John Ashcroft sold him as the Great American Threat, and what he was, was a semiliterate thug with no real focus in life. In the end, he didn't get convicted of a single actual act. It all amounted to bad thoughts.

In terms of the Liberty City Seven, feel free to argue that they're a major terrorist threat worthy of Alberto Gonzales press conferences. It's up to the state to convict. So far, one acquittal and two hung juries on the other two isn't a major testament. How much they spent trying to put these guys away? A few million dollars? A few tens of thousands of manhours.

As for the last guy...

Yeah, he was a little looney.....

As for the 9/11 hijackers... I don't think they can be compared to any of the above bunch. They had funding. They were genuinely organized. They were taking flying lessons. If your argument is that the CIA can't tell the difference between real threats and bogus ones... well, that tells us a lot about why intelligence failures happen.

 

[Den Valdron]

Excuse me. Was Hezbollah building this reactor? Is that the allegation? It was a nuclear reactor with a school and a hospital inside it? I haven't heard that. I might be a little behind the news.

 

[skadistic]

particularly when you've already pointed out that they provide schools and hospitals.

Yeah they need places to hide those weapons and set up as targets full of civilians.

 

[Den Valdron]

It seems that Israel keeps falling into their trap.

 

[skadistic]

It seems that Israel keeps falling into their trap.

Yeah those stupid Israelis should just let hezbola keep those rocket launchers and allow them to target Israeli civilians. The best way to deal with terrorists to just let them keep terrorizing. Fighting back is clearly wrong. Giving in is good!

The deaths of human shields lay at the feet of those who use them.

 

[Den Valdron]

Any death lays at the hands of the man who pulls the trigger. Make no mistakes about that.

I dunno. For some reason, I find it difficult to consider you any sort of expert on Hezbollah. I really doubt that you know much about their history, their funding, their operational capabilities, their policies, their representation in the Lebanese parliament, etc.

Your analysis seems to be no more sophisticated than: Hezbollah = Bad! Okay, fine. That's a point of view. But it doesn't really tell us anything, doesn't do anything, and certainly doesn't mean that every action of Israel is good. Or perhaps in your world, its that simple.

I'm perfectly prepared to let you have your opinion. But I don't find it persuasive or informative in the least.

I don't particularly see how this tangent relates to the original premise of the thread.

 

[skadistic]

Any death lays at the hands of the man who pulls the trigger. Make no mistakes about that.No it doesn't.

I dunno. For some reason, I find it difficult to consider you any sort of expert on Hezbollah.Thats nice I really doubt that you know much about their history,Really I've said truthful things so far. their funding, mostly from Iran.their operational capabilities,Yup I know little about the rockets and heavily armed army they have that controlls southern Lebanon their policies, Like using terror to achieve their goals.their representation in the Lebanese parliament,A few seats. etc.

Your analysis seems to be no more sophisticated than: Hezbollah = Bad! Your analysis of mine is lacking. Okay, fine. That's a point of view. And my view is backed by facts. But it doesn't really tell us anything, doesn't do anything, and certainly doesn't mean that every action of Israel is good. Did I say it was? Can you quote that? Or perhaps in your world, its that simple.No in my world you are that simple.

I'm perfectly prepared to let you have your opinion. But I don't find it persuasive or informative in the least.If facts aren't good information for you then maybe I should drum up some hezbola propaganda for you.

I don't particularly see how this tangent relates to the original premise of the thread.

I don't either, so why did you have it? I'm sure your tangent about me had nothing to do with the premise of the thread but here we are.

 

[Den Valdron]

Feel free to throw in some facts.

 

[BasketCase]

But this is the pattern. The story gets broken about a big terrorist plot foiled a ring broken, an arrest made. And then on detailed investigation, after the headlines are over and people are looking elsewhere... it turns out to be nothing.

Nope. Didn't happen with the set of incidents I described. Believe me, when the U.S. government foils a "terrorist attack" that turns out to be some kid who was playing with a toy gun? The newspapers jump on those instantly. Screw-ups by the U.S. government always make headlines.

This is not what I saw in the daily paper. The daily paper made ONE claim that since 9/11 (i.e. over a span of about five years) more than a hundred terrorist attacks inside the United States had been foiled. The paper didn't say anything about these attacks turning out to be false alarms or government mistakes. If even one of those "attacks" had been a false alarm or a mistake, the newspaper would have said so. It did not.

 

[brennan]

Yeah those stupid Israelis should just let hezbola keep those rocket launchers and allow them to target Israeli civilians.

These Katyusha launchers can't accurately target a small town from what i've seen, let alone 'civilians'.

The deaths of human shields lay at the feet of those who use them.

Such reasoning may seem fine when you fall for it once, but when it becomes systematic it seems hard to distinguish it from a reckless disregard for Palestinian civilians on both sides.

Hezbollah seem to set these things up and fire them in the vague direction of Israel just in the hope that the IDF will overreact in the most criminally negligent way possible. And the IDF do so. Every. Single. Time.

 

[Den Valdron]

So... there are hundreds of genuine terrorist attacks that are foiled, but not reported by the government. Its all a secret media effort to conceal that we're winning the war on terrorism? The media only reports the dogs?

And Ashcroft and Gonzales were part of the conspiracy as well?

I really don't think so. There are not hundreds of terrorist attacks foiled. The law enforcement/intelligence effort is not turning up stuff. Sorry.

It's just not real.

 

[skadistic]

Feel free to throw in some facts.

I did. Its to bad you missed them. You can lead an ass to water......
Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[BasketCase]

Den, it's a really good idea to quote. Because a couple other posters were too fast and got in before you did.

So... there are hundreds of genuine terrorist attacks that are foiled, but not reported by the government. Its all a secret media effort to conceal that we're winning the war on terrorism?

No, the media just doesn't care. I already explained why: nothing went kaboom. Nobody got shot. No shock value. Good news does not make headlines.

 

[skadistic]

These Katyusha launchers can't accurately target a small town from what i've seen, let alone 'civilians'.So aiming a hundred rockets at a city is targeting that city?
Such reasoning may seem fine when you fall for it once, but when it becomes systematic it seems hard to distinguish it from a reckless disregard for Palestinian civilians on both sides.Yup the IDF should know that the missile launcher that is threatening Israelis is on top of a home for ******** kids and shouldn't destroy it.

Hezbollah seem to set these things up and fire them in the vague direction of Israel just in the hope that the IDF will overreact in the most criminally negligent way possible. And the IDF do so. Every. Single. Time.

And they should every single time. Destroying the rocket launcher that fires on your civilians isn't an over reaction. It is the job of a nations army.

Do you understand the concept of a rocket barrage? There is something about odds in there but I'll leave you to figure how that works.