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Allow picking of tiles for culture expansion

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Slowpoke, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    So you feel that there are better things to do with your gold than tile buy and then complain that you don't get the results of those who spend gold on tile buy? I'd take that as a sign that the system is working exactly as intended. Spending gold in one area means not spending it in another. The only penalty is opportunity cost.
     
  2. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    You're not. You're spending gold to claim the land. Culture is a different process with the same effect.

    You don't. You spend money on cultural buildings so you can more rapidly accrue Social Policies, which you can direct and choose. Diffusion of culture is never a directed process unless you're talking about deliberate propaganda/missionary campaigns.

    Are you running Tradition? You plop down money everywhere in this game, no matter what you decide to do.

    Yes, that is exactly the point. Also to enable artist specialists to generate Great Artists who will get you tiles at no culture or money cost. Not to mention hastening culture expansion.
     
  3. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    Sorry for the length of this post!

    Primatologist, WC McGrew, suggests that we view culture as a process consisting of 6 steps:
    1. A new pattern of behavior is invented, or an existing one is modified.
    2. The innovator transmits this pattern to another.
    3. The form of the pattern is consistent within and across performers, perhaps even in terms of recognizable stylistic features.
    4. The one who acquires the pattern retains the ability to perform it long after having acquired it.
    5. The pattern spreads across social units in a population. These social units may be families, clans, troops, or bands.
    6. The pattern endures across generations.

    Now, in the above context, culture spread is purely an organic process. On the other hand, entities within a social group can, have, and do play a major role in transmitting its culture to other social groups and seeing that it endures. Ultimately, the claim that cultural diffusion is "never" a directed process is flatly wrong.

    From The Columbia History of the World, on Hellenistic culture: "This culture was...rooted in a common feeling...with the consequence that anyone...came to be called a Greek if he possessed the culture....This culture was not linked to any political power or even...religion....it was a matter of costume, language, and technology...and the way of analytical thought....rulers like the Maccabees promoted Hellenization as necessary for power and independence....Hellenistic culture was dominated by the big monarchies and characterized by the life of their capitals....cosmopolitan cities where the most important holdings were the vast domains of the kings, temples, and great officials....When a city was founded for Greek settlers the citizens had to be given…elections, assemblies…a theater, an open market, courts and gymnasia…these were the centers from which Hellenistic culture radiated…And even those natives (invaded peoples) were deeply influenced…..”

    The spread of Greco-Roman culture happened similarly as they acted to subject conquered peoples: “The Roman formula for management of the mob was bread and circuses…public amusement was developed by the Romans on a scale unparalleled…the enlarged theater…the ampitheater….acqueducts…functional buildings…tenements…markets….”

    In the above instances, the source-culture directed the transmission of their culture to others by establishing the institutions characteristic of their culture, within which different social groups mingled, and from which, their culture was transmitted by force or attraction so that eventually the natives were Hellenized.

    VOA, student exchanges, advertising, the exporting of goods, trade agreements, internet, music, etc. are a few examples of how American culture is directed and shared with other foreign social groups. World culture has been heavily impacted by such directed activities.

    Domestically, when a city body refuses to permit a strip-club to open in a particular area within the city, that body is directly influencing the culture of that neighborhood. Las Vegas, by directly supporting the building of gambling casinos, has directly controlled the cultural identity of the city that has influence across the whole of the state and influences out-of-staters and foreigners as well.

    The above are all examples of how culture is directed, shaped, and promoted. In short, cultural diffusion is emphatically NOT ONLY a passive process.

    Now, one thing for sure is true, money may purchase land, but there is no quid pro quo money for culture. This game conflates aspects of what, in real life, would be largely distinct processes, viz. land acquisition and cultural expansion.

    Culture is not an entity in the physical sense -- a physical person is swayed by a particular culture or another. Cultural expansion has more to do with the movement of people, ideas, goods, language, religion, etc. than anything else. Therefore, culture is carried with people into new lands, or people in a land become swayed by the infusion of an outside culture.

    Here, the game does not decide whether a tile recently obtained via cultural growth was previously inhabited by un-cultured people, or whether people have recently settled in this hitherto unoccupied land and thus carried culture into that land. The game provides no answer here. All we know is that this game really doesn't simulate that process in detail. Rather, the game's process is generic. The argument that the OP and I are making is that the generic process is lame!

    As I posted earlier, I think it would be worth discussing how national borders and cultural influence could be developed into two different but related systems. It could be a fun system in which culture and land acquisition were treated differently. Possibly, purchasing tiles v. cultural acquisition of tiles could be a starting point for developing that system…..A system in which a person might own land and have the right to work land despite the fact that it is culturally dominated by another CIV…..

    I also miss the way cultural borders in C4 could expand or contract based on strength of one civ's culture relative to another! I can understand fixed national borders, but not static cultural borders....
     
  4. Elliot

    Elliot Warlord

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    I'd also would like to be able to pick which tiles I want to expand to. Hills are a low priority AND they cost more to purchase. What a pain. I feel like its a lot better to just build a settler and plop down a city to grab 7 tiles, then to expand with culture buildings. Civ3 had this same problem. It made more sense to tightly pack in cities to gain access to all the nearby tiles than to build temples to expand your cultural borders.
     
  5. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    cultural expansion should be just quicker
    thats it
     
  6. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    That would certainly seem a more correct way of putting it, although perhaps it would be pertinent to think about the cultural aspect of it, and the fact that control of cultural spread is not nearly as possible.

    Wouldn't that just have the effect of taking a lot of importance away from it?
     
  7. SaiH

    SaiH Warlord

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    I like this idea and I want to add that it schould be thought about abandoning the fixed association of tiles to certain cities.
     
  8. Atwork

    Atwork Immortal

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    Again, sorry for the length of this post....



    I agree. In real terms, culture spread isn't as controlled a process as municipal annexation. That is an argument tending to support culture expansion remaining a passive system, whereas land purchasing remains based on purchases. Even though I don't like that: (1) cultural expansion = arbitrarily random with stupid results & (2) land purchasing = cultural expansion..... I would actually be fine with pretty much keeping the system the same IF: culture spread over the land in a way that better approximates how a population tends to settle, occupy, and utilize land.


    I assert that culture should spread based on the following set of assumptions
    :

    (1) Culture spreads with and through people. Therefore, culture should spread over the land where people are most likely to occupy.

    (2) people are most likely to want to occupy land that is valuable -- valuable to their interests.

    (3) people have an interest in survival, the growth of their family, and passing accumulative value to their heirs -- to that end, people seek a profitable living that will bring added value to the person and the family

    (4) a profitable living is usually obtained by occupying a niche in society where there is a need and rendering good services within that niche. Following from this premise, it would seem unwise for people seeking a profitable living to settle into farming land when a city (filled with potential consumers/purchasers/trade partners) already has plenty of food -- it is dumb to enter a trade to supply goods whose value is depressed in market filled with surplus. Likewise, it would be unwise for people seeking the good life to neglect taking advantage of a forest filled with bounty -- instead, people are naturally going to want to exploit those resources (the advantages outweigh the risks!) Also, if a city is starving for industrial production, it would not make sense for people seeking to fill a societal need to neglect the fact that the niche isn't being filled -- an organizer of labor (possibly at the behest of the sovereign) would naturally step forward to organize workers in order to mine the hills in order to fulfill the industrial production needs of the city because it would be profitable to fill that niche.....

    (5) Finally, the tendencies of people to 'go where the action is or is needed' can be greatly promoted by incentives provided by the sovereign. In that way, culture diffusion is not a wholly undirected process -- see discussion above. Therefore, if the governor wants a hitherto undeveloped area annexed and developed, the governor can order roads built, public buildings built and build other infrastructure to promote and support the expansion of people, business, and industry into that area. This infrastructure will contain institutions in the same form of the earlier development and thus the cultural patterns will remain the same. In this way, cultural transmission into newly acquired and eventually developed areas is a directed process.


    In summary, if players are NOT going to be given complete control to direct their cultural expansion, then at least the coding for culture spread should result in the most valuable tiles being acquired first, but also taking into account the needs of the city and the priorities set by the governor.
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    That seems to make sense. I guess my point isn't so much that borders shouldn't expand onto the most usable tiles, but that you perhaps shouldn't have direct control of it.
     
  10. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    A properly coded algorithm for AIs would *also* be smart enough to grab the juicy oil field only 6 tiles away from the city... meaning -- outside of its current territorial control or unworkable by the 37 range limit.
    What if i want a big long rectangular corridor of tiles instead of the usual 91_is_it_baby_deal_with_it?

    Again, AI --would-- be competitive enough in such organic patterns of expansion too.
     

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