[BTS] Alpha in semi-iso

[Tobiyogi]

I realized that in semi-isolation, my beloved neighbor most of the time refuses to go for ALPHA (even some science beast like Willem).
Why? Does he have a clue that I am behind anyway and that he won't get any useful trades? Or do AIs decide to go for early Alpha only when they have several potential trading partners?
What to do in that kind of situation? Do you invest extra spy points to see the AI research earlier? Do you tech Alpha on your own? It's such an important tech, especially in a peaceful game, it comes soon to the point where nothing else can be built and where building research 'd come in very handy....

 

[sampsa]

I guess they are programmed to favor alpha more if they've met more civs, dunno? I'm not easily swayed away from astro-line. What will you get via trade anyway? Monarchy and that's it I think. Monarchy and alpha are the only early techs that don't unlock any buildings or units, so AI will not say "we don't want to trade this technology yet". I rather just mind my own tech path and take alpha if an AI goes for it. I wouldn't touch the -slider, because I don't see a major benefit of doing that. I think the best way of doing things is just focusing on (=cottages) and not working mines (unless failgold!).

 

[Tobiyogi]

I was asking this also under the impression of a deity game where I shared a continent with one guy, and met two additional guys by workboat. Curiously, no-one had contact with each other, but I had eventually contact with 3 AIs, none of them having Alpha yet and I was wondering what to do. I had my spy points on my direct neighbour and he on me, and when I met someone else they also put their points on me. Having 3 potential trading partners and not having Alpha (and not knowing if someone goes for it) can hurt a bit. I was thinking of getting Monarchy (low happiness) and Calendar (several resources available). IW would have been nice too.
It's true, when you work only cottages and food, research won't do you any good.

 

[sampsa]

Well, I guess it's not semi-isolated anymore then. Deity AI does send scouting work boats out very quickly, so they will meet each other quite quickly if you open borders with all of them. Well, unless your culture claimed ocean tiles creating a bridge to the other landmass, then they won't be meeting pre-optics.

edit: anyway, if all three of them have met only you, you won't be getting any trades from them, so going alpha doesn't really do anything but the ability to build . Oh and you can get monarchy via trade.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I believe that the two scouting work boats had been killed by barb galleys so both of the other guys managed only to meet me. Very particular situation!
Ok, it does not count as semi-iso for me, as I could potentially even trade resources, not only techs. But as everyone of those guys had the impression to get early contact only with me (the weak human player, at least in the beginning), they avoided Alpha. Eventually I got it from Lincoln, but quite late.
Weird game anyway, as I missed the opportunity to axe-rush my neighbour who was spread out with only archers and chariots and no metal whatsoever. Instead of doing that I settled poor land and waited for alpha to build research. Very bad decision. Next time. Still learning.

 

[earthy]

the one good thing about alpha in isolation is you can build research when you run out of other useful stuff to build. if you don't have many good tiles you can get a quicker return out of working a mine versus growing a grassland non river cottage for example. whether that makes it worth deviating from the astro line i'm not sure. if you want to bulb optics you'll need it, but from what I've been reading lately it seems like bulbing optics isn't the common play?.

 

[sampsa]

it seems like bulbing optics isn't the common play?.

Nope, I don't think it's a good idea in general, want to save bulbs for the expensive astro. Also, need alpha+math+calendar to bulb it and you can skip all three if just hard teching optics.

 

[earthy]

such tempting techs when you have forest and calendar resources though

 

[sampsa]

Yeh, but +1500 is a huge delay on astro, too.

 

[earthy]

if you can pump out three GS in time the optics bulb is like a 975 discount on that though. Maybe worth it if you have enough calendar resources to earn those 525 back with extra population? I do often run into a problem doing that though. If I bulb optics and double bulb astro I often struggle getting a 4th great person out for a golden age without switching to caste. Even with caste it's sometimes painful if I don't have a city with massive food.

 

[sampsa]

I'd assume there are maps where it makes sense to go for 3*GS and manually research alpha+math+calendar, yes. Probably needs PHI, lots of forest, multiple calendar resources. Oh btw do you need aesth to bulb optics? Pretty sure you need aesth to bulb astro.

 

[earthy]

Not for astro, no. I'm sure you've seen it before but this thread is super helpful for bulb orders: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/great-people-tech-prefences.140952/

You do however need aesth to bulb machinery... I learned that one the hard way in the NC Hammurabi game trying to pull off an early machinery bulb for xbows

 

[krikav]

It's not common at all.
The optics bulb doesn't require calendar, but you do need math+alfabet.
I think it can make sense to bulb optics in situations where you go alfa early on (when you have alot of hammer-heavy tiles and don't have any marble to go for failgolding.)
That way, you can go math relatively early and possibly gain something from the chopping (and if nothing else, you can perhaps chop caravels easier!), and bulb optics really early and gain tech trades/circumnavigation and start diplo earlier.

The tradeoff with bulbing astro is even higher though, as optics have a pre-req (compass) and you get +20% beaker boost while teching it, this doesn't happen with astro, and this is partly the reason why it's a even more powerfull bulb than one could belive.

Opics 1014 beakers, astro 3380 beakers. (deity numbers)
Say you are generating 85 beakers per turn, then you would gain 85*1.2 = 102 beakers per turn and optics would be 10 turns worth of research. So, optics bulb=10 turns research.
Astro at 3380 you get no *1.2 bonus, so it's 3380/85= 40 turns worth of research. Two bulbs required, and each of those are thus worth 20 turns of research.

If you want to do a tripple-bulb (optics + 2* astro), you need to have 3 libraries up and be able to run two scientists is all of them at T80 to be able to put the final bulb into astro at T130, and that can be quite a challenge.

Does the numbers add up @sampsa ?

 

[sampsa]

Yes, math seems correct.

 

[Tobiyogi]

the one good thing about alpha in isolation is you can build research when you run out of other useful stuff to build..

In a complete iso, currency seems much more useful to me than Alpha. But I am not sure if currency ruins any key bulbs. In my situation, semi-isolated on 1 continent, plus more contacts, Alpha would have been very useful.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Not for astro, no. I'm sure you've seen it before but this thread is super helpful for bulb orders: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/great-people-tech-prefences.140952/

I prefer to check that in the game itself by clicking on the tab. The list confuses me

 

[sampsa]

In a complete iso, currency seems much more useful to me than Alpha

Currency doesn't ruin any bulbs, but I still don't think you ever want to tech it. Extra domestic trade route is only +1 (unless you have two island cities). Building wealth is a nice bonus, but you will be working mostly -tiles anyway.

 

[krikav]

Currency is something you only go for in iso in very rare circumstance (at least to my knowledge).
Say you have a really large landmass with good land to settle peacefully, and you have room for at least 2 offshore cities.

Then it might make sense to simply go your own way, and just develop and let the AIs find you, and going currency early on makes sense.

 

[Tobiyogi]

That sounds logical to me..... when you have only 4-5 cities, a second TR won't do much for you, and the expensive currency tech (600 beakers?) will pay off after 120-150 turns only... unless you can settle islands, of course, but that's not a big thing neither. Never really thought about that. So, unless there is really good land, the idea is to beeline without any deviation optics/astro.

 

[Fippy]

We had that infamous Mao map (iso thou, not semi), where Rusten had a great game with Currency.
Imo this happens sometimes when we have much land to settle & develop, in theory we can also wait for AIs to find us instead of rushing Optics.
And currency can boost trade routes with islands, or a bigger isle, while building wealth can be good too in "hammer cities".